Back to my earlier conversation with psolk about a solar power system...

I am interested in getting one eventually, but it bears pointing out that the one psolk got for $12,500 does not have a battery storage system, so no power when there's no sunlight, and less power when it's cloudy.  Hence why he also has a gas furnace for heat in the winter.

The average cost for a 15kw system is over $30,000, which most people cannot afford.  The govt. subsidies help, but they are still very expensive.

Dave

You may have noticed that I asked the same question about electricity prices in Europe a few posts above yours.
It seems like a non-sequitur to me too.
I can tell you that one of the reasons why nuclear generation in France may have dropped is that most of the power
stations are cooled by river water and there is a rapidly diminishing quantity of that, as the Europe-wide drought continues. 

Edited August 28, 20223 yr by Reader

20 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Electricity prices in the USA have not doubled over the past year.

But natural gas prices have doubled here Dave.  Look at my original post that started this thread.  I wrote My heating bill jumped from $540 in 2021 to $1140 this year.  I'll find out next month what it will be for 2023. 

Noel

Edited August 28, 20223 yr by birdguy

1 minute ago, Reader said:

It seems like a non-sequitesequitur to me too.

I think I found the answer:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/800217/eu-power-production-by-fuel/

Natural gas accounts for almost 20% of electricity production in Europe, and coal another 15%.  I'm guessing that Europe gets most of its coal from Russia.

About 3.5% comes from "other fossil fuel" whatever that is, and again is likely imported.

Almost 14% comes from wind, and I read an article recently about the wind generation being low in Europe due to, you guessed it, low winds.  Then there's the reduced nuclear capacity as you mentioned.

This should serve as a cautionary tale for other countries that 1)make sure you're not too dependent on other countries, especially unfriendly ones, for your energy, and 2)make sure you have enough domestic supply of non-fossil fuel, but reliable, energy sources such as nuclear and hydro, before you try to put all your eggs in a single basket of renewable green power.

Dave

5 minutes ago, birdguy said:

But natural gas prices have doubled here Dave.  Look at my original post that started this thread.  I wrote My heating bill jumped from $540 in 2021 to $1140 this year.  I'll find out next month what it will be for 2023. 

Noel

We don't use a lot of natural gas here as we have mild winters.  We have a gas stove/oven and we do cook a lot, but our natural gas bill only averages about $50 a month during the short winter and $20 a month during the long summer.  Our bill has increased over the past 2 years, but not doubled.  Maybe you had a colder winter?

Natural gas is sold in an international market like oil, so if supply drops somewhere else, the price goes up everywhere.  Electricity isn't like that in the USA as we don't import/export it to other countries, except maybe Canada.

Dave

53 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Back to my earlier conversation with psolk about a solar power system...

I am interested in getting one eventually, but it bears pointing out that the one psolk got for $12,500 does not have a battery storage system, so no power when there's no sunlight, and less power when it's cloudy.  Hence why he also has a gas furnace for heat in the winter.

The average cost for a 15kw system is over $30,000, which most people cannot afford.  The govt. subsidies help, but they are still very expensive.

Dave

 

It depends on your situation whether a battery is worth it for you. If, like me, and like Ray, you are retired and at home during the day then a battery doesn't make much sense financially. On the other hand, if you are working and away from home all day, and arrive home in the evening and demand power, then a battery makes sense.

It also depends on your financial situation and motives. If you have plenty of money and are wanting to be self sufficient re power, then it might be reasonable to buy a battery. 

15KW is hefty! Are you powering an experimental device in your shed? 😃 Its three times what we would install in the UK. Greedy boy. Do you have 96 square meters on your roof to mount them? I guess you are talking about generating your entire power and heating requirement. I like your style. 😺

The average solar panel cost in the UK is £5400  10 solar panels 265 kWh. Battery is £2500 to £8000. 

https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/cost

https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.uk/main/solar-panels/the-cost-of-solar-panels/

 

Cost of Solar Panels per kW System in the UK 

System Size	Estimated Costs	Number of Panels	Roof Space	Annual Electricity Bill Savings	Savings after 25 Years with SEG
3kW panel system	£5,000 - £6,000	12	22 m²	£160	£5,993
4kW panel system	£6,000 - £8,000	16	29 m²	£270	£9,240
5kW panel system	£8,000 - £9,000	20	32 m²	£320	£11,088
6kW panel system	£9,000 - £11,000	24	43 m²	£430	£14,533

 

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2014/08/what-is-the-installation-cost-for-solar-panels

 

These solar shingles seem a good idea if you need a need a new roof. You install them like ordinary shingles.

 

 

Edited August 28, 20223 yr by martin-w

Time to dust off the big woolen poncho and Granny's hot water bottle to snuggle up under it,  Spent a lovely month on a houseboat on Dal Lake in Srinigar   and have fond memories of keeping warm that way.

19 minutes ago, martin-w said:

15KW is hefty!

Yeah, it's more than what the typical household would need, but it's pretty standard in the USA.  Many houses here have 100-150 amp service, and some have 200 amp.  Just 100 amp service equates to 11.5kW, 150 amp is 17kW.

Most houses here use big air conditioners which use a lot of power, plus electric dryers, washing machines, dishwashers, and electric water heaters.  Many houses also use electric heat pumps which consume a lot of power.

Then there's the house size, where the typical USA house is bigger than a typical European house.

Dave

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

Back to my earlier conversation with psolk about a solar power system...

I am interested in getting one eventually, but it bears pointing out that the one psolk got for $12,500 does not have a battery storage system, so no power when there's no sunlight, and less power when it's cloudy.  Hence why he also has a gas furnace for heat in the winter.

The average cost for a 15kw system is over $30,000, which most people cannot afford.  The govt. subsidies help, but they are still very expensive.

Dave

Yes, spot on Dave.  We've adjusted our lifestyle a bit to accommodate and have full sun exposure from sunrise to sunset which allows us to maximize our daytime production.  Pool pump only runs during daylight hours, washer/dryer on a Sunday afternoon but doubling the price of the system didn't justify the returns.  Mine was more to reduce my massive footprint on traditional during the day with everything running as this is now a home office as well.  

Paul  

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

I'm guessing that Europe gets most of its coal from Russia.

A lot of coal comes from Germany.  But they have a delivery problem.  Most of their coal is transported on barges.  The rivers are so low now that they can only transport 1/2 to 1/3 loads to keep the keels floating.

It's a problem on all fronts.

Noel

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

Maybe you had a colder winter?

I think our winters are colder than yours.  We are not next to the gulf and we are 3,000 feet higher than you are.  It freezes almost every night but warms up into the 40s during the day on average.

Noel

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

Yeah, it's more than what the typical household would need, but it's pretty standard in the USA.  Many houses here have 100-150 amp service, and some have 200 amp.  Just 100 amp service equates to 11.5kW, 150 amp is 17kW.

Most houses here use big air conditioners which use a lot of power, plus electric dryers, washing machines, dishwashers, and electric water heaters.  Many houses also use electric heat pumps which consume a lot of power.

Then there's the house size, where the typical USA house is bigger than a typical European house.

Dave

 

Makes sense, per capita you guys in the US and Canada are at the top of the chart regarding power consumption. 

Yes, your houses are much bigger than the UK and Europe. Cheaper too. 

80 or 100 amps is the typical supply in the UK. We have most of the appliances you have of course but air conditioning is the big one that we generally don't have. Heating is our priority, with most houses heavily insulated and having gas combi boilers. 

batteries are what allow you to get away with fewer solar panels.  No average house needs or could use 17kW ever second of the day.  A lot of that energy would be wasted if you're not feeding it back to the grid and around here they actually charge you for trying to be grid tied.

The battery is a regulator.  You just need to be thoughtful about your actual needs versus wants.  Each of my two batteries can deliver 100Amps for one hour.  over 200 Amps for 6 seconds I think  it is.  They are in parallel for 200 Amps if needed.  A large bank could easily provide an average houses needs.

Really what matters is your peak wattage needs and your peak kWh needs and how much sun you get.

Edited August 28, 20223 yr by sightseer

1 hour ago, sightseer said:

batteries are what allow you to get away with fewer solar panels.  No average house needs or could use 17kW ever second of the day. 

You're right.  No one needs 17kw, but it's about peak capacity, not average usage.  If I'm running a large air conditioner, microwave oven, television, water heater, PC, lights, and other stuff all at the same time then 6kW or 10kW might not cut it. 

Battery storage is a must if your going to rely solely on solar panels or wind turbines for all your power needs, and they are currently the weak point in the system due to their cost and lifespan.  I'm sure they will get better and hopefully come down in price.

Dave

 

27 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

You're right.  No one needs 17kw, but it's about peak capacity, not average usage.  If I'm running a large air conditioner, microwave oven, television, water heater, PC, lights, and other stuff all at the same time then 6kW or 10kW might not cut it. 

Battery storage is a must if your going to rely solely on solar panels or wind turbines for all your power needs, and they are currently the weak point in the system due to their cost and lifespan.  I'm sure they will get better and hopefully come down in price.

Dave

 

Yep, our peak was just under 13 and that was before the pool heater went in.  The other system option was 12.5 but I am hoping to do a battery bank when they do mature "and" come down in price so figured go big now for future capacity planning.  In NJ we can give it back to the grid, I have a bi-directional meter for that reason.  (or something of the like they swapped me out to)  Also thinking for a detached garage with lift that would piggyback off the system in the future and add another 2 KW and prices were already increasing while my system was being finalized so I knew I'd pay a lot more to come back to it later...