XP12: the good, the bad, the ugly

[HiFlyer 9,359]

2 minutes ago, mSparks said:

even if the long ugly rambling one was paid for by Microsoft.

Yikes! I'm.... hoping you don't seriously believe that...

Edited September 17, 2022 by HiFlyer

[mSparks 2,086]

15 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

Yikes! I'm.... hoping you don't seriously believe that...

Just glancing at his previous 11 reviews I'd need some serious convincing this guy is legitimate interest and not justifying to himself he will surely still have a Job working on MSFS stuff come January.

Reasonably sure only an evil corp employee can cram that amount of wrong into a single review.

Edited September 17, 2022 by mSparks

[HiFlyer 9,359]

16 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Just glancing at his previous 11 reviews I'd need some serious convincing this guy is legitimate interest and not justifying to himself he will surely still have a Job working on MSFS stuff come January.

 

Well....

Honestly, it kind of looks like your average reddit/discord rant for one product or the other.

I tend to find them boring, and while I thank you for posting, and I did read a few paragraphs, I didn't finish it, and right now it's pretty firmly on my tldr list.

That sort of post is simply what you get when somebody is frustrated at not being able to speak out on subforms or forums like this, and is finally able to give a full throated rant in a different venue.

Your unfounded supposition (unless you're sitting on some sort of proof) that he is an employee or future employee of Microsoft itself, I view with exactly similar ambivalence as I do that review.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by HiFlyer

[mSparks 2,086]

7 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

Well....

Honestly, it kind of looks like your average reddit/discard rant for one product or the other.

I tend to find them boring, and while I thank you for posting, and I did read a few paragraphs, I didn't finish it, and right now it's pretty firmly on my tldr list.

That sort of post is simply what you get when somebody is frustrated at not being able to speak out on subforms or forums like this, and is finally able to give a full throated rant in a different venue. Your unfounded supposition (unless you're sitting on some sort of proof) that he is an employee or future employee of Microsoft itself, I view with exactly similar ambivalence.

Its been shown a few times that those talking points (yup, including similar on reddit) are the talking points distributed by those in the inner circle of MSFS and their marketing teams (most of the reddit ones are deleteduser now).

To be amoung the first to post this garbage on the xp12 steam early access (so he was waiting for it to drop, and wrote all that after 15 minutes of using it) pretty much guarantees it imho. There are thousands of them - close to more than there are regular XP11 users, and thats before you start counting their use of personna management software.

Edited September 17, 2022 by mSparks

[HiFlyer 9,359]

3 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Its been shown a few times that those talking points (yup, including similar on reddit) are the talking points distributed by those in the inner circle of MSFS and their marketing teams (most of the reddit ones are deleteduser now).

To be amoung the first to post this garbage on the xp12 steam early access (so he was waiting for it to drop, and wrote all that after 15 minutes of using it) pretty much guarantees it imho. There are thousands of them - close to more than there are regular XP11 users, and thats before you start counting their use of personna management software.

Alrighty then. I'm going to leave you to it, and good luck with all that.

[mSparks 2,086]

10 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

Alrighty then. I'm going to leave you to it, and good luck with all that.

30% of people found it funny.

Thats a fairly decent proportion of legitimate users laughing at him.

They understood the mission.

Its worth bringing up because its still not widely known - but has been a massive problem for over a decade:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/feb/23/need-to-protect-internet-from-astroturfing

"marketing in 2022"

Edited September 17, 2022 by mSparks

[scotchegg 4,186]

49 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Just glancing at his previous 11 reviews I'd need some serious convincing this guy is legitimate interest and not justifying to himself he will surely still have a Job working on MSFS stuff come January.

Oh Mr. Sparks…

You really think if MS wanted to astoturf XP12 they’d do it with….one reviewer? And one with only 11 reviews? And one who also gave FSX a negative review?

Bless you, don’t ever change🤩

[abrams_tank 7,422]

On 9/11/2022 at 1:29 AM, fogboundturtle said:

I know this is work in progress. but when I look at this screenshot I just took. it's hard to imagine this is game/simulator that was made in 20222. I am not trying to be mean or anything but no amount of ortho can fix this. Which mean, it will take an insane amount of disk space and mod to correct this. If you ask me what is the worst part of Xplane 12, this is it.  it's really hard to look at this and think this is Vancouver. 

Hey @fogboundturtle, I saw your post on Reddit where you are now using SimHeaven X-America + Orthos:

I assume the top left picture is XP 12 with SimHeaven X-America + Orthos (that top left picture is better than the top right, but it still doesn't look close to Vancouver, the buildings are all wrong for downtown Vancouver, downtown Vancouver doesn't look anything like that, especially the condos and Canada Place, as I used to live in Vancouver - the MSFS representation is much more accurate, especially the condos, Canada Place, etc).  With SimHeaven X-America + Orthos, you are getting 33 FPS, about 20 FPS lower than MSFS, which is quite significant, IMO.  Did you run all 3 tests in 4K?  I would like to know what conditions you ran those tests.  Thanks!

Edited September 17, 2022 by abrams_tank

[Murmur 3,941]

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

Just glancing at his previous 11 reviews I'd need some serious convincing this guy is legitimate interest and not justifying to himself he will surely still have a Job working on MSFS stuff come January.

Reasonably sure only an evil corp employee can cram that amount of wrong into a single review.

Reading that rant was hilarious. 😆 I actually HOPE for him to be paid by the competition, because if he's not, it means he shelled the money for a product he hates, just to write a negative review, mere minutes after release. One could even argue that the latter is the less rational explanation between the two... But after all, we people are often irrational!

Anyway, the style and content of that guy closely reminds me a specific user (or maybe two) that lingers around in one of the avsim forums...

[The Flight Level 2,113]

9 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Hey @fogboundturtle, I saw your post on Reddit where you are now using SimHeaven X-America + Orthos:

I assume the top left picture is XP 12 with SimHeaven X-America + Orthos (that top left picture is better than the top right, but it still doesn't look close to Vancouver, the buildings are all wrong for downtown Vancouver, downtown Vancouver doesn't look anything like that, especially the condos and Canada Place, as I used to live in Vancouver - the MSFS representation is much more accurate, especially the condos, Canada Place, etc).  With SimHeaven X-America + Orthos, you are getting 33 FPS, about 20 FPS lower than MSFS, which is quite significant, IMO.  Did you run all 3 tests in 4K?  I would like to know what conditions you ran those tests.  Thanks!

Is that top right photo really default XP12? If so, the LR developers have put their eggs in the wrong basket. I know it has been said many times, but they need to stop tweaking already awesome flight models with each successive version and direct their efforts to scenery technology. That pic is embarrassing at best considering this is 2022. This new XP version will do little for the numerical downslide in users on the platform if this is the state of the scenery offering in 2022. They (LR) must believe that scenery addons will keep them viable to experience maximum realism in flight simulation.

[MrBitstFlyer 3,875]

55 minutes ago, Doering said:

direct their efforts to scenery technology

They have already announced ground scenery will be advanced during the beta.  I just hope they don't go down the awful photogrammetry route.

[Gary1124 181]

58 minutes ago, Doering said:

Is that top right photo really default XP12? If so, the LR developers have put their eggs in the wrong basket. I know it has been said many times, but they need to stop tweaking already awesome flight models with each successive version and direct their efforts to scenery technology. That pic is embarrassing at best considering this is 2022. This new XP version will do little for the numerical downslide in users on the platform if this is the state of the scenery offering in 2022. They (LR) must believe that scenery addons will keep them viable to experience maximum realism in flight simulation.

Scenery, road, and terrain accuracy is helpful for visual navigation. Exact buildings to real world are nice to see but only the significant for visual aid landmark types are essential.

Authentic ATC

Air traffic on actual routes or doing patterns at GA Fields

Proper weather and atmospheric effects

Thermals, microbursts. Windshear, cross winds, icing effects

Realistic emergency scenarios

All of these are far more valuable to the total simulated flight environment than seeing ones' actual house below.

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

2 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

Hey @fogboundturtle, I saw your post on Reddit where you are now using SimHeaven X-America + Orthos:

I assume the top left picture is XP 12 with SimHeaven X-America + Orthos (that top left picture is better than the top right, but it still doesn't look close to Vancouver, the buildings are all wrong for downtown Vancouver, downtown Vancouver doesn't look anything like that, especially the condos and Canada Place, as I used to live in Vancouver - the MSFS representation is much more accurate, especially the condos, Canada Place, etc).  With SimHeaven X-America + Orthos, you are getting 33 FPS, about 20 FPS lower than MSFS, which is quite significant, IMO.  Did you run all 3 tests in 4K?  I would like to know what conditions you ran those tests.  Thanks!

5800x3d / 3080Ti / 3440x1440p / max graphic settings on all screenshot

It is sad that it is still very raw at this stage of development. I am not asking for MSFS level of graphic but at least give me frame. Also none of the building have any shadow. We are far from  2022 standard. I was label a hater for showing my finding. All I want is a bit better perf and some more building in metro area. This is not asking for too much.

[scotchegg 4,186]

47 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

They have already announced ground scenery will be advanced during the beta.  I just hope they don't go down the awful photogrammetry route.

When done well, photogrammetry is excellent. Definitely seen too many examples of it not being done well, however.

[MrBitstFlyer 3,875]

51 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

5800x3d / 3080Ti / 3440x1440p / max graphic settings on all screenshot

It is sad that it is still very raw at this stage of development. I am not asking for MSFS level of graphic but at least give me frame. Also none of the building have any shadow. We are far from  2022 standard. I was label a hater for showing my finding. All I want is a bit better perf and some more building in metro area. This is not asking for too much.

Lack of shadows has been reported. Remember, XP-12 is in Beta.  This is a screenshot I took leaving Glasgow, UK southbound.  For every poor shot of any simulator, there is an equally good one.  when I took this image I was getting 70FPS, and that is with 8x AA - beta 3 improved performance.

There is plenty wrong with XP12 at this early stage, but plenty right. The lighting engine is a step up from MSFS - how many posts have been in MSFS forums talking about filters to improve colours and lighting?. XP-12 needs no adjustment at all, it is very, very good.

To go from default XP-12 to what can be seen in this image cost me absolutely nothing.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by MrBitstFlyer