3 minutes ago, Gerwil said:

If this means that the plane can be downloaded for free and then decided upon if one wants to join the early access, that's not bad at all.

No. It means that you can decide to sit out. Don't pay. Don't fly. Wait as long as you want or never jump in at all. It's entirely your choice. 

11 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

First, you're assuming other consumers' purchasing decisions live in a vacuum and don't impact other consumers.

How you decide to spend your money has absolutely no impact on me.

11 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

Second, you're making a rose-colored assessment of early access business models that don't apply to this product. Fact is, the feature list doesn't even reach the early access threshold.

There is no "early access threshold." You're literally making one up arbitrarily.  

Edited January 6, 20233 yr by Abriael

18 minutes ago, Abriael said:

How you decide to spend your money has absolutely no impact on me.

 

Me alone? No. How the market as a whole responds to early access models? Yes. 

20 minutes ago, Abriael said:

There is no "early access threshold." You're literally making one up arbitrarily.  

And you are literally simping for a cash grab dev for no reason that I can discern. Bizarre. 

7 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

Me alone? No. How the market as a whole responds to early access models? Yes. 

The market has already responded to early access models. That ship has sailed long ago. Flight simulation was simply behind the curve, as it always is. And yet there have already been successful early access products like the Airbus H145.

7 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

And you are literally simping for a cash grab dev for no reason that I can discern. Bizarre. 

Newsflash: Literally every payware developer on the market wants to "grab" your cash. They're businesses. That's what they do. None works out of the goodness of their hearts. 

I'm not "simping" for anyone. I'm simply giving them the benefit of the doubt. They have been transparent about what they offer and what they will offer. I'll save the holy rage for the possibility that they don't deliver and will be happy if they keep they promises, which will allow me to jump in when the project reaches the stage that's enjoyable for me. Raging preemptively is juvenile. 

Edited January 6, 20233 yr by Abriael

1 hour ago, Steve Dra said:

Fabio is previewing it now on twitch.

https://www.twitch.tv/theflyingfabio

 

So I dropped by Fabio's Twitch channel and the chat was discussing how the fidelity of this E175 is lower than the fidelity of the Aerosoft CRJ, at this time. FYI, I don't really have interest in buying this plane, even if it were study level, but I wanted to see what all the controversy was about, especially since this thread is so long, so I watched Fabio's stream a little.  Here are my thoughts:

1. For products like this, where there is a very long development time for the product, the businesses that make these products eventually reach a point where they run out of funds to continue development, unless the business is backed by someone with deep pockets.  It seems like FSS needs the cash injection to keep developing the product, hence the early access version for this plane.

2. As a customer, you are not obligated to buy anything, and you have the right to wait for a product that is more complete, before you buy the product.

So this is my take on this.  I think if this is a plane that you really want, and that you hope will become more high fidelity, but you don't mind taking the risk that the developer will stop adding features to this plane at some point, and/or the plane doesn't get much better than what you see now, you may consider the early access as a way to help fund this developer.  But if you do this, there is a risk that this plane doesn't get much better, and/or the project may be abandoned at some point before the fidelity you want is reached.  So in effect, treat this as a "Go Fund Me" project with potential, but you may not ultimately get what you want with your money in the long run.

On the other hand, if you expect things to be polished and fully featured, and you don't like to fund these projects that are incomplete, then just wait it out. Wait until this plane has all the features you expect, before you buy it.

Since I'm on this topic, I wonder why projects like these can't be done as a "Go Fund Me" project, where the developer can get more funding if they meet certain milestones. Maybe there is a business and tax reason why this can't be a "Go Fund Me" project. If it could be a "Go Fund Me" project, it would make more sense, because then their funding depends on whether they can meet specific goals of completing specific features by a certain date.  Then they could charge much less than the 33 Euro, maybe charge something like 15 Euro or 20 Euro to get them some cash infusion to continue the project, and if they meet specific goals, get more funding as the goals are met.

Edited January 6, 20233 yr by abrams_tank

1 hour ago, Farlis said:

I beg to disagree. There is absolutely everything wrong with early access. Having people pay for alpha versions that may never get to the initially planed final stage, is one of the worst cancers in gaming. There should be legislation against it, because people certainly can't help themselves and stop their impulsive shopping for stuff that is not finished.

agree.  so long as this the new norm, developers on all platforms are going to use this as an excuse to churn out unfinished work.  

6 minutes ago, Abriael said:

Flight simulation was simply behind the curve, as it always is. And yet there have already been successful early access products like the Airbus H145.

Are you new to flight sim? Because flight sim devs have been doing this before it was even called early access. The history of flight sim is replete with failed early-access style products. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, AirSimmer is a perfect example that happened many years ago before early access was mainstream. 

8 minutes ago, Abriael said:

I'm simply giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Based on what? Again, they have no track record of delivering on what they say they will. You sound completely naïve. 

5 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

Are you new to flight sim? Because flight sim devs have been doing this before it was even called early access. The history of flight sim is replete with failed early-access style products. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, AirSimmer is a perfect example that happened many years ago before early access was mainstream. 

General gaming has been doing this much longer than flight simulation, and in a much more widespread and successful way.

6 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

Based on what? Again, they have no track record of delivering on what they say they will. You sound completely naïve. 

This developer has already delivered several products for MSFS, including the gliders for the 40th anniversary edition. 

If they could satisfy Microsoft itself as a client, they've certainly earned themselves the benefit the doubt. There's zero naivety here. 

6 minutes ago, Abriael said:

General gaming has been doing this much longer than flight simulation, and in a much more widespread and successful way.

 

But it's not new in FS, that's my point.

6 minutes ago, Abriael said:

including the gliders for the 40th anniversary edition. 

You're right, after all, what is an E175 if not a glider with two engines? Great point. 

3 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

 

But it's not new in FS, that's my point.

You're right, after all, what is an E175 if not a glider with two engines? Great point. 

You're moving the goalposts. They do have a track record. 

Nice discussion! Carenado has been releasing early access for years....

Oh boy watching the Fabio stream... one engine keeps going off during cruise for no apparent reason, over and over again...
Early access or not - if you release something in this awful state you have either no shame or no money (or both).

32 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

AirSimmer is a perfect example that happened many years ago before early access was mainstream

This case looks a lot like Airsimmer.

- 3D model made by another company / freelance, if I am not mistaken about the E-jet.

- Small team.

- First really ambitious project.

- Lots of promises on their website.

- Early access / paying alpha tester.

I think the E-jet plane will go the same way as the A320 from Airsimmer, the roadmap is truly massive, will take at least 1-2 years of development to make it happen, maybe less if they use components available on default MSFS planes, but still. Will the cash they make with early access be enough to stay afloat this long? 

13 minutes ago, bigifooti said:

Nice discussion! Carenado has been releasing early access for years....

Maybe, but they never claimed their product would reach A2A level of depth.

3 minutes ago, bendead said:

- Small team.

8 people is not a small team in the flight simulation industry. Not even close. 

13 minutes ago, Abriael said:

8 people is not a small team in the flight simulation industry. Not even close. 

About the same as the Airsimmer team, either it was not enough or they did not have the cash to continue paying the 8 or so a couple more years

Reading FSS website, they place the bar quite high, like Airsimmer in their time

Edited January 6, 20233 yr by bendead