14 hours ago, cagarini said:

Well,

I acknowledge FliyingIron's care with updates, fixes, new features, but honestly the Spitfire still leaves a LOT to be desied.

Ground handling IMO got even stranger than before, that overdone torque on roll that we can try to compensate for using the iPad is totally out of sync with official real aircraft flight test data and reports, while the effects on sideslip are tame, etc....

It's difficult for someone who has used DCS or IL-2 (and even a freeware Spitfire for XP12) to be able to feel ok with this one 😞

Surely not FlyingIron's fault, MFS FM is still too arcadish in most aspects, although I tend to use MFS a lot more than any other sim these days specially thanks to the PMDG 737 and the Fenix A320.

I don't know whether it is Flying Irons fault - or Asobo's - but the latest "upgrades" have ruined this spitfire for me -😟

I am not a 'study aircraft" person - but i believe that FI have gone too far in the search for this so-called Holy Grail

In 5 attempts over the past 2 days - I haven't got the thing either to the end of a runway - or even managed a take off

I do have experience of this aircraft in both A2A and DC over the years - and whilst this bird was great up to the last 2 upgrades -It has gone down the path of forcing me to take a look at the A/Heaven bird - so that I can fly it again.

3 hours ago, jaytee73 said:

I don't know whether it is Flying Irons fault - or Asobo's - but the latest "upgrades" have ruined this spitfire for me -😟

I am not a 'study aircraft" person - but i believe that FI have gone too far in the search for this so-called Holy Grail

In 5 attempts over the past 2 days - I haven't got the thing either to the end of a runway - or even managed a take off

I do have experience of this aircraft in both A2A and DC over the years - and whilst this bird was great up to the last 2 upgrades -It has gone down the path of forcing me to take a look at the A/Heaven bird - so that I can fly it again.

@jaytee73, thank you for your observations, and coming from someone who, as the avatar pic suggests, surely has a lot more of knowledge about how to handle a prop aircraft IRL, they're even more valuable.

The real thing is certainly tricky to "handle" IRL, taxiing, taking off and the final stages of the landing roll, specially under x-wind, requiring pilot prompt input and corrections, as described in many official tests and pilot reports, but the lack of better ground physics modelling in MFS, even with the new parameters that were introduced to overcome the lack of detail in modelling a wheel in contact with the ground and the interaction between the various forces/moments, makes it difficult to have the kind of "feel" simulators like DCS World or IL-2 Great Battles provide.

They have added a "ground adjustable" aileron trim tab, that we can adjust through the tablet, but the amount of torque-roll is overdone, while at the same time and as common to many prop aircraft in MFS, yaw due to prop effects is tame.

I have tested it a bit more and OTOH it clearly shows that a lot of work was put into some details like the engine, prop disk braking effects at lower power settings, better than usual among many models I've used pitching moment due to flap deployment, HStab incidence, etc...

A few months ago I heard about a former 1C/777 team member having joined ASOBO. I am still confident that his contribution can bring better flight dynamics and overall physics modelling to MFS.

In flight this Spitfire, mostly due to the not so good turbulence modelling used in MFS, behaves at times like a paper aircraft. This is an effect that plagues all aircraft in MFS specially in the vicinity of structures, and at lower levels above terrain when even a slight wind is present, or there are triggers active for thermals to be enabled 😕

I believe the next sim update will fine tune some of these effects.

Anyway, it's still a very nice aircraft to have in my MFS fleet!!!

Edited February 9, 20233 yr by cagarini

6 hours ago, jaytee73 said:

In 5 attempts over the past 2 days - I haven't got the thing either to the end of a runway - or even managed a take off

Really? Something here certainly is off. But I don't think it's the plane. Probably your control config.

 

54 minutes ago, crimplene said:

Really? Something here certainly is off. But I don't think it's the plane. Probably your control config.

 

I am with you. I opened a new thread  to give some hints on how to fly the FI Spit'

Edited February 9, 20233 yr by Dominique_K

My Thanks to Cagarini for the kind approach to my problems with the spit - and for the remarks relative to my Avatar

Although I haven't physically flown an aircraft for some 40 years - I did clock up some 1000 hours PPL flying in various

single and twin aircraft back in the 60s -  80s  - and actually owned a PA 32 300 in which the engine torque needed to 

be experienced especially in a crosswind

what I will do now is to re-examine my control settings to be more in line with what the FI  spitfire needs rather than those 

I currently have it set for  ---- DC  and A2A/P3D

PS I dont have any problems with the asobo p-51 as used in the racing segments

Edited February 10, 20233 yr by jaytee73

10 minutes ago, jaytee73 said:

I did clock up some 1000 hours PPL flying in various

single and twin aircraft back in the 60s -  80s  - and actually owned a PA 32 300 in which the engine torque needed to 

be experienced especially in a crosswind

what I will do now is to re-examine my control settings to be more in line with what the FI  spitfire needs rather than those 

I currently have it set for  ---- DC  and A2A/P3D

PS I dont have any problems with the asobo p-51 as used in the racing segments

It's not your / mine fault ... but maybe some day they can find a better compromise between what they model very acceptably in this Spitfire and what MFS's flight dynamics and overall physics / weather modelling allows for...

There will always be differences in controllability with different physical setups of course, but using rudder pedals and a decent stick (VKB Gunfighter with 200mm extension) I find the spit difficult but doable, I've never flown one IRL to comment on accuracy

15 minutes ago, jaytee73 said:

what I will do now is to re-examine my control settings to be more in line with what the FI  spitfire needs rather than those 

I currently have it set for  ---- DC  and A2A/P3D

This is about the MSFS internal settings. An example : my takeoff improved some months back after I changed a curved to a linear sensitivity for my MFG pedals. What kind of controllers do you have JT ?

Again, one can discuss ad infinitum about MSFS modeling ( like the somewhat flawed ground traction for instance) but at the end of the day this bird is flyable. Actually a joy to do pattern flights.  I am no ace and did about twenty takeoffs and curved approach landings yesterday. You should too 😉.

42 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

This is about the MSFS internal settings. An example : my takeoff improved some months back after I changed a curved to a linear sensitivity for my MFG pedals. What kind of controllers do you have JT ?

Again, one can discuss ad infinitum about MSFS modeling ( like the somewhat flawed ground traction for instance) but at the end of the day this bird is flyable. Actually a joy to do pattern flights.  I am no ace and did about twenty takeoffs and curved approach landings yesterday. You should too 😉.

@Dominique-K, let me tell you details I like in the FI Spitfire and are very acceptably reproduced:

- Prop drag, when you retard throttle and prop pitch for approach - the pace at which speed decays is now, after a few iterations of the FI Spitfire IX, apparently spot-on, from comparison with DCS and IL2 models, as well as from the many youtubes available showing Spitfire MK IX flown IRL...

- Pitching moments due to gear and then flap deployment. The first release didn't model the well known pitching down moment due to flap deployment and the effect of the airflow over the elevator. It is now very well modelled I believe.

- Not to the level of DCS World ( IL-2 also does it wrong ) or at least a freeware model available for XP12, but the cruise trim settings are now closer to RW, and the typical elevator down position observable in most videos and screenshots of the IX flying is now slightly noticeable ( should be a bit more pronounced, I guess )...

- Adverse yaw, very light on the real Spitfires and also in the FI model...

And also where it is still far from the DCS and IL-2, as well as that freeware Spitfire for XP12:

- Rudder effectiveness at taxi speed and power settings - still too effective and not really requiring proper taxi techniques where you can't really rely on the rudder to steer... (but then again, MFS's ground physics still leave a lot to be desired...)

- Way overdone torque-on-roll: it's, I'd say, ridiculous as it is now modelled 😕 and, OTOH, a lack of sideslip due to prop effects( roll on yaw ) as you increase power... 

- The Spitfire is known for being, in terms of dynamic stability, neutral in pitch under most flight situations. Turns can require a push in the stick to avoid the adverse effect - not noticeable in this model..

Edited February 10, 20233 yr by cagarini

@cagarini  I didn’t say you are wrong, Jose. For instance, I am also a bit skeptical about the strong torque effect early at take off which is not documented in any Spitfire literature. That is why in the tip thread I started, I warn about to be ready to give some right aileron pretty fast. My point is not that the FI Spit is perfect but it is flyable if you try to understand her idiosyncrasies and practice a bit (and have proper controllers).

I do not have the Spit in DCS but the P-51 didn’t impress me too much. But then again its been a long time since I’ve flown DCS.

 

Edited February 10, 20233 yr by Dominique_K

On 2/9/2023 at 9:11 AM, cagarini said:

They have added a "ground adjustable" aileron trim tab, that we can adjust through the tablet, but the amount of torque-roll is overdone, while at the same time and as common to many prop aircraft in MFS, yaw due to prop effects is tame.

I have tested it a bit more and OTOH it clearly shows that a lot of work was put into some details like the engine, prop disk braking effects at lower power settings, better than usual among many models I've used pitching moment due to flap deployment, HStab incidence, etc...

 

If that torque-roll is overdone in the FI Spitfire, why does this pilot keep nearly full right aileron right until the moment of liftoff (as all Spitfire pilots do, btw - check Youtube)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6s9PsGW8LI

Should he have asked you how to fly that Spitfire?

No idea about your setup, but my FI Spitfire requires exactly the same amount of control deflection as the ones on all the videos I've seen.
Especially that rudder on the ground now - I'd say it's spot on. At taxi speeds very, very ineffective, requires the  full deflections that are so typical for all the Spitfires you see moving on the ground. Are you really sure that you are not using the simplified rudder model?

Cheers
Andreas

 

58 minutes ago, Ojisan_alpha said:

If that torque-roll is overdone in the FI Spitfire, why does this pilot keep nearly full right aileron right until the moment of liftoff (as all Spitfire pilots do, btw - check Youtube)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6s9PsGW8LI

Should he have asked you how to fly that Spitfire?

No idea about your setup, but my FI Spitfire requires exactly the same amount of control deflection as the ones on all the videos I've seen.
Especially that rudder on the ground now - I'd say it's spot on. At taxi speeds very, very ineffective, requires the  full deflections that are so typical for all the Spitfires you see moving on the ground. Are you really sure that you are not using the simplified rudder model?

Cheers
Andreas

 

Most interesting. 

I have not watched any YT (or I don’t remember 😁). I was a bit surprised not to find anything about countering a roll torque in the Pilots notes for the Spitfire F IX (2nd edition 1943)  or in the Spitfire IX, XI & XVI Pilots notes (3rd edition 1946) of the Air ministry.  It would be only natural to have one but there is no mention of any, 

*EDIT* I found this in my bookmark trove. The pilot alludes to using right aileron during the roll. 

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/74484-supermarine-spitfire-take-off-and-landing-guide

 

Edited February 10, 20233 yr by Dominique_K

Indeed on some videos you can see that stick deflection, and yes the FI ground handling got better with the latest updates, but there's still too much authority at taxi speeds & power - but better than it was before, so converging towards a good state...

The takeoff is a soft field takeoff. See here for one without or very light right stick input:

 

Edited February 10, 20233 yr by cagarini