15 hours ago, efis007 said:

Absolutely yes.

I just drove the car all morning, I had sun on my face for more than an hour on the highway, I also wore very dark sunglasses, but I always saw the dashboard and the car instruments perfectly even though I had eyes pointed out the windshield.
Can I ask you a question?
But what kind of world do you "fans" live in? 
In the real world,....or in the XP world?
Have you ever entered the cockpit of a liners aircraft, for example a A320, parked in the square in broad daylight?
If you entered the cabin, what was that panel like in broad daylight?
Was it all black and unreadable?

Ouch!! So, you can see AT THE SAME TIME outside the window and also to the speedometer? Congratulations! You have supernatural eyes.
As I don't have the patience and time as you, I won't create a schematic, but explain in simple words. Human eye exposed to bright light: it automatically adapts by closing the pupil. Consequence? The bright light seems to get darker, right? What happens at the same time with the view into the cockpit - although not possible at the same time, but if it was: it would be darker, too, due to the closed pupil. See? When you turn down your head (or the pupil), the pupil will adapt again (opening) and the cockpit gets brighter again. See?

 

16 hours ago, SAS443 said:

To further illustrate what @efis007 is trying to explain to everybody. Consider this photo from the DA40. I tried to mimic the lighting levels (not focus) on the panel  my eyes experienced when glancing just above the cowling. Obviously not 100% perfect but close enough for its purpose.

Now, In XP12 this view would be rather dark, as illustrated from Q8pilot's stream of the RSG DA40

I have to tell you, this particular ambiance feels very sureal to me as a DA40 pilot, it doesn't scream immersion. DA40 has a canopy which almost acts like a greenhouse, light easily find its way into the cockpit even when it's cloudy.

XP12 is generally superb at creating believable lighting conditions and colors, but its big weakness imho, is when sitting in the cockpit looking out. Sometimes it just doesn't feel right at all.

Why are you using a screenshot with questionable data? We don't know anything about the position of the sun (in your real photo it is clearly identifiable) and additionally there are clouds in the sky (casting shadows into the cockpit).

What do you think about these pictures?

Sunny weather: view outside, pupil closed due to light exposure -> cockpit relatively dark.

Sunny weather: view into the cockpit, pupil opened due to less light exposure -> cockpit brighter.

 

BKN: view outside, pupil closed (but less than above) due to less light exposure from outside -> cockpit relatively dark but brighter than above.

BKN: view into the cockpit, pupil opened due to less light exposure -> cockpit even brighter than further above.

 

As it was said, it might be a bit too dark, but it isn't WRONG. Unless you are claiming 95% correct (within the limitations of a computer and a monitor) is wrong. There I have an example I've read about: a simmer complained about an addon plane not being correct (i.e. wrong) and wanted a refund. Why? He flew from A to B with live weather and in parallel observed a real flight on flightradar24 with the same plane type from A to B. He arrived 5 minutes later that the real flight, thus he claimed the addon plane is "unusable/wrong" and he deserves a refund.

 

Edited July 12, 20232 yr by flying_carpet

Interesting. @flying_carpet and @MrBitstFlyer you seem to have very opposing views on this matter.

50 minutes ago, flying_carpet said:

As it was said, it might be a bit too dark, but it isn't WRONG

Because both me and @MrBitstFlyer actually agrees that Xplane is not depicting what a real pilot would experience. And what we see is a (huge) compromise. Even @Murmur believes that the dark cockpits can be rectified by local tonemapping.

Facepalm back at you, I suppose.

You're like Don Quixote, charging at windmills. Have you ever flown an airplane and have at least an idea what we want fixed?

Edited July 12, 20232 yr by SAS443

If you think the lighting in the panel is too dark when looking outside, provide Laminar with some figures for lighting and tone mapping that confirms your findings, and they will make changes.  

They won't make changes if you THINK it's not accurate, or if you cannot provide numbers.

1 hour ago, flying_carpet said:

What do you think about these pictures?

Personally, I think they are absolutely fabulous and I am fairy surprised/amazed they managed to get them that realistic without relying on nvidias raytracing tech.

1 hour ago, flying_carpet said:

but it isn't WRONG.

This is what confuses me about what they actually expect to get fixed. They have made absolutely no case that anything is wrong, just complain that it is hard to see anything when they stare towards the sun, unilaterally declare that unrealistic and "not how eyes work", then repeatedly post screenshots of xplane looking towards the sun somehow expecting that to prove the case.

That is, however actually marginally better, than an org mod that recently declared he wanted xplane cockpit lighting to be similar to that of the con tower in the aircraft carrier....

i.e.

did my very best to not get sucked into that one...

Edited July 12, 20232 yr by mSparks

20 hours ago, SAS443 said:

To further illustrate what @efis007 is trying to explain to everybody. Consider this photo from the DA40. I tried to mimic the lighting levels (not focus) on the panel  my eyes experienced when glancing just above the cowling. Obviously not 100% perfect but close enough for its purpose.

That is an excellent example. I think you managed to recreate quite well how we perceive light in real life (when not looking at the sun).

Interesting that both the outside and the cockpit are not over- or under-exposed. Proof that a perceptually realistic image can be reproduced on a low dynamic range monitor without losing contrast. So that might be an unjustified fear by some people.

Maybe the "Lighting Tuning" and "Sky/exposure recalibration" listed in the mid-term roadmap will include something in that regard, be it local tone mapping or something else.

2 hours ago, SAS443 said:

Interesting. @flying_carpet and @MrBitstFlyer you seem to have very opposing views on this matter.

Because both me and @MrBitstFlyer actually agrees that Xplane is not depicting what a real pilot would experience. And what we see is a (huge) compromise. Even @Murmur believes that the dark cockpits can be rectified by local tonemapping.

Facepalm back at you, I suppose.

You're like Don Quixote, charging at windmills. Have you ever flown an airplane and have at least an idea what we want fixed?

You (completely) missed the point. Where did I write that X-Plane is "depicting what a real pilot would experience"? What I wrote and showed with screenshots: eye exposed to much light -> pupil closes for adjustment purposes and to save its retina, cockpit gets darker. Eye exposed to less light -> pupil opens, cockpit gets brighter. It can be this simple 🙂.

 

2 hours ago, GoranM said:

If you think the lighting in the panel is too dark when looking outside, provide Laminar with some figures for lighting and tone mapping that confirms your findings, and they will make changes.  

They won't make changes if you THINK it's not accurate, or if you cannot provide numbers.

THIS! "Too dark" is wishy-washy. If someone can tell it's by this or that amount too dark (or bright, or whatever) and can prove it with facts and numbers, not feelings - go ahead.

4 hours ago, SAS443 said:

You are indirectly agreeing with both me and Efis. But the fundamental difference is that you are content with this compromise, while me and Efis is asking for improvements in the tonemapping.

If tonemapping can be utilized in a way that doesnt compromise the lighting then i'll be fine with that.

11 minutes ago, Murmur said:

Interesting that both the outside and the cockpit are not over- or under-exposed. Proof that a perceptually realistic image can be reproduced on a low dynamic range monitor without losing contrast. So that might be an unjustified fear by some people.

Like here (what I have shown further above). "The outside" and the cockpit are both bright. Ok, the cockpit is "dark" because it's black (or be it dark grey), but apart from that ... is it WRONG?

 

Edited July 12, 20232 yr by flying_carpet

8 minutes ago, flying_carpet said:

Like here (what I have shown further above). "The outside" and the cockpit are both bright. Ok, the cockpit is "dark" because it's black (or be it dark grey), but apart from that ... is it WRONG?

 

That looks quite good indeed. Is it a freeware aircraft? Would like to try it as well.

2 hours ago, flying_carpet said:

Ouch!! So, you can see AT THE SAME TIME outside the window and also to the speedometer?

Yes.

4 hours ago, flying_carpet said:

Congratulations! You have supernatural eyes.

My eyes are absolutely normal like those of every other person who drives a car every day in the world and sees the instruments perfectly even when staring at the sunny road ahead.
If you can't see your car's instruments while looking at the road out there, then I urgently recommend an eye exam.

 

2 hours ago, flying_carpet said:

As I don't have the patience and time as you, I won't create a schematic, but explain in simple words. Human eye exposed to bright light: it automatically adapts by closing the pupil. Consequence? The bright light seems to get darker, right?

Ah... does the light get darker ?🤭 
You are a genius.
So to get the "Sunglasses" effect, just look directly at the Sun, the pupil shrinks a lot, and I see less light, as if I'm wearing sunglasses. 😀
Great.
You have revealed to us the secret of "free eternal light".
I will also apply it in my house.
When evening falls I no longer light the chandelier.
What is the chandelier for? To nothing, to fatten the electricity multinationals!
From today there is the ingenious solution of Flying Carpet: I keep the chandelier Off, my pupils dilate to the maximum, and I see the light where it is not there. 😀
Fantastic.
I created the chandelier light without using light!
And I darkened the sunlight without using tinted glasses!
You really are a genius, I hadn't really thought of that.
How many miracles a pupil of the eye can perform (especially after drinking a flask of wine).  🤭 

Pupillary movement does not serve to "increase" or "decrease" the perceived light, but to avoid glare (overexposure protect) of the visual system.
Our visual system, by its nature, always tries to level the information received, and this process is not only contributed by the pupil, but also and above all by a complex chemical process of interaction and exchange between the eyes and the brain.
You in optics, dear flying carpet, do not understand an emeritus bat, and it can be guessed from the nonsense you write in which you state that "It is impossible to see both the exterior and the instrumentation well at the same time!". 🤦‍♂️
I'm sorry, it's only impossible for YOU who don't understand anything about human optics, and waste your time denying XP12 bugs and making advertising videos for this sim.

If you are interested in understanding how our visual apparatus can see, understand, interpret multi-luminous-information at the same time, study a little real medicine, starting with some simplistic treatises.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_perception

 

2 hours ago, flying_carpet said:

What happens at the same time with the view into the cockpit - although not possible at the same time, but if it was: it would be darker, too, due to the closed pupil.

You keep talking about pupil... pupil... pupil.... but the marvel of the human visual system isn't the pupil, it's our BRAIN.
The brain processes the information that comes from the eyes and decides HOW to make us see the image resulting from that processing!
If we were to believe your reasoning of the "light that changes according to the movements of the pupil" we humans could never go to the cinema! 😄
You know why?
Because at the cinema you are in a totally dark environment, with your eyes focused on a bright screen on which moving images are projected that continuously change their brightness.
According to your reasoning, our eyes would literally go crazy in such a situation because the pupils... open and close... open and close... open and close... and therefore the overall vision of the film would be totally compromised, the poor spectator would never be able to get a uniformly exposed view of the film. 
However, none of this happens.
Why?
Because it's the brain that prevents it from happening! 
The brain processes all those variations in brightness and LEVELS them in such a way as to allow us a pleasant viewing of the film.
This brain process of knowing how to "self-level" light information allowed the birth of television and cinema.
And it is the same process that allows us humans to drive any means of transport by day or night without any problems, and to have global visual control of the interior and exterior.
 

By the way, you still haven't answered my question:
- What will you do after Laminar fixes the dark panels bug? 
Will you change simulator? 
I can help you if you want, there is P3D which seems perfect for all the "I can't see anything" fans.
https://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=142594

3 hours ago, Murmur said:

That is an excellent example. I think you managed to recreate quite well how we perceive light in real life (when not looking at the sun).

Interesting that both the outside and the cockpit are not over- or under-exposed. Proof that a perceptually realistic image can be reproduced on a low dynamic range monitor without losing contrast. So that might be an unjustified fear by some people

Yes. Well put.

And hopefully we'll see improvements down the road.

1 hour ago, efis007 said:

Yes.

My eyes are absolutely normal like those of every other person who drives a car every day in the world and sees the instruments perfectly even when staring at the sunny road ahead.

Do you have an head up-display? If so ... ok. Otherwise ... .
Wall of text
TLDR
Ignored

 

3 hours ago, Murmur said:

That looks quite good indeed. Is it a freeware aircraft? Would like to try it as well.

No, it's the VSKYLABS Scheibe SF-25C. However, you can try it as well with the XP 12 default Vans RV-10.

Cockpit from pilot's view - GCFV, ramp 47, heading East, June 12, 15:21 UTC, weather clear. For me, the panel is bright enough, however (due to higher light exposure) darker than in ...


... the rear passengers view (same place and time).


Comparison of the panel of both previous pictures: pilot's view (eye exposed to more light, panel looks darker) to passengers view (eye exposed to less light, panel looks brighter).

3 hours ago, efis007 said:

So to get the "Sunglasses" effect, just look directly at the Sun, the pupil shrinks a lot, and I see less light, as if I'm wearing sunglasses. 😀

depends on the sunglasses.

https://pilotinstitute.com/pilot-sunglasses/

Mostly its about reducing glare and cutting out UV when you need to look towards the sun which forces your pupils to close excessively making the cockpit dark and the instruments hard to read...

something like a sun visor, 

 

reduces the light coming in through the window, allowing your pupils to remain more open and as such makes the cockpit and instruments brighter and easier to read.

which is why pretty much every commercial aircraft comes equipped with such movable tinted glass.

 

 

6 hours ago, efis007 said:

My eyes are absolutely normal like those of every other person

Glad to hear it, but the problem is viewing the world through a low dynamic range MONITOR!  Give up with this constant talk of real eyes!

@efis007

are you on nvidia or amd?

If you are on nvidia, give changing the colormode of your display from full to limited a try.

bottom right of this picture (for windows aiui)

that could also explain a lot of the "aa" issues people complain about.

Edited July 13, 20232 yr by mSparks