Kudos to MS/ASOBO for the latest adjustments to the flight and ground handling of the CJ4 - a big improvement!  I have run into an interesting phenomenon, however, which I'm guessing relates to the increased "stiction" of the aircraft's tires?  She's now hesitant to leave the ground.  I don't necessarily consider this a problem in the long run, as I'm making some adjustments to elevator control response and changing my procedures somewhat.  I would like to get some opinions on whether others are experiencing this or even if this is actually realistic with this airframe...

On my first takeoff after the update I rotated at VR and aligned with the TOGO indicator as always - nothing happened.  I kept pulling back and pulling back until the stick was almost "in my stomach" when she suddenly leapt off the ground.  She passed 25° angle before I could even respond with the stall warning going off - I managed to get the nose down and the rest of the flight was wonderful.  She's now handling beautifully and I was able to make a smooth landing instead of a feeling like dropping a brick.

For my second flight I increased my vertical control sensitivity and gently rotated again at VR.  She was still stuck on the ground so I continued to gently pull back.  All at once she leapt off the ground, but this time, I managed to stop rotation before she reached 20° (still got stall warning).

I'll find out more today on my 3rd flight.  I'm going to try pulling the stick back a moderate amount and then just holding it until she unsticks - hopefully, she'll lift off smoothly and not exceed the TOGO guidance.  Is anyone else experiencing this?  If so, what adjustments or procedures are you using?

Sounds like a Trim setting. I never have this issue

-B

1 hour ago, RandallR said:

Is anyone else experiencing this?  If so, what adjustments or procedures are you using?

As a data point, I just tried a CJ4 takeoff out of curiosity, and it came off the runway very easily and smoothly. Elevator trim was in the middle of the green range, flaps 15.

Al

Edited March 24, 20233 yr by ark

I was flying it yesterday and this is the smoothest it has ever taken off. Feels great. Something must be up on your end.  

1 hour ago, btacon said:

Sounds like a Trim setting. I never have this issue

-B

Trim is in the green

5 minutes ago, ark said:

As a data point, I just tried a CJ4 takeoff out of curiosity, and it came off the runway very easily and smoothly. Elevator trim was in the middle of the green range, flaps 15.

Al

Same here.

2 minutes ago, RobJC said:

I was flying it yesterday and this is the smoothest it has ever taken off. Feels great. Something must be up on your end.  

Can you folks share your controller settings?  Right now, my Y-Axis Sensitivity settings for the CJ4 are (Thrustmaster T.16000M):

Sensitivity -: -20%
Sensitivity +: -20%
Dead Zone: 2%
Neutral: 0%
Extreme Dead Zone: 0%
Reactivity: 100%

39 minutes ago, RandallR said:

Can you folks share your controller settings?

Y Axis:

Sensitivity -: -58%
Sensitivity +: -58%
Dead Zone: 4%
Neutral: 0%
Extreme Dead Zone: 0%
Reactivity: 85%

I also run the yoke axes through FSUIPC7 and use an elevator slope of 4 (reduces the initial sensitivity a bit). I'm not sure exactly how the FSUIPC7 and MSFS sensitivity curves "combine". It may be the FSUIPC7 output is the input to the MSFS sensitivity settings.

Al

Edited March 24, 20233 yr by ark

2 hours ago, RandallR said:

I'll find out more today on my 3rd flight.  I'm going to try pulling the stick back a moderate amount and then just holding it until she unsticks - hopefully, she'll lift off smoothly and not exceed the TOGO guidance.  Is anyone else experiencing this?  If so, what adjustments or procedures are you using?

This is really odd!  I actually just pulled the CJ4 out of the hangar a couple days ago and it flies wonderfully.  I am certainly not seeing this issue.  I use the TM Boeing yoke so my sensitivities will be different.  I have mine set at -47% and reactivity at 75%.  Do you have any kind of addons installed for the CJ4 (paints, textures, etc)?  I am not sure if the past mods for the WT version work with the new CJ.  Also, is your elevator moving when in outside view?  Just thinking if there could be a controller issue or conflict somewhere.

Edited March 24, 20233 yr by Flic1

I agree with

3 minutes ago, Flic1 said:

I am not sure if the past mods for the WT version work with the new CJ.

My understanding is none of the past CJ4 mods should be used after AAU1.  I would go back to the "bare basics" for testing and only use a default livery and nothing in the Community folder. If the problem persists with that, I'd then unplug my controllers and takeoff just using the mouse to see what happens. Or maybe it is easier to start with the "just mouse" test.

Al

49 minutes ago, ark said:

Y Axis:

Sensitivity -: -58%
Sensitivity +: -58%
Dead Zone: 4%
Neutral: 0%
Extreme Dead Zone: 0%
Reactivity: 85%

I also run the yoke axes through FSUIPC7 and use an elevator slope of 4 (reduces the initial sensitivity a bit). I'm not sure exactly how the FSUIPC7 and MSFS sensitivity curves "combine". It may be the FSUIPC7 output is the input to the MSFS sensitivity settings.

Al

Thanks for sharing.  The ironic thing here is that your settings are almost identical to what I was using prior to the update (though I've never had Reactivity set to anything but 100% - not sure what that does).  I'm beginning to think I may need to bring my vertical Sensitivity + settings to higher (closer to 100%) levels?

31 minutes ago, Flic1 said:

This is really odd!  I actually just pulled the CJ4 out of the hangar a couple days ago and it flies wonderfully.  I am certainly not seeing this issue.  I use the TM Boeing yoke so my sensitivities will be different.  I have mine set at -47% and reactivity at 75%.  Do you have any kind of addons installed for the CJ4 (paints, textures, etc)?  I am not sure if the past mods for the WT version work with the new CJ.  Also, is your elevator moving when in outside view?  Just thinking if there could be a controller issue or conflict somewhere.

On the 1st flight I used no add-ons whatsoever.  I use no past mods on the aircraft - it is my understanding they are no longer compatible.  On the 2nd flight I added a livery I like to see if there would be any issues - there were none.

The elevator is moving throughout its entire range in the exterior view - no change in the exterior visual.

Edited March 24, 20233 yr by RandallR

 

2 hours ago, RandallR said:

.... Is anyone else experiencing this?  If so, what adjustments or procedures are you using?

What you describe is one of the things my T16000M started to do when it was wearing out.  Specifically, one of the wires runs around the shaft and can become loose over time, especially with lots of Z-axis usage -- this is an issue with the T16000M's

I would double-check that you're not getting spikes (uncommanded movement) in the elevator axis.

If no spikes, then disregard the above, you must have some other issue.

2 hours ago, RandallR said:

I've never had Reactivity set to anything but 100% - not sure what that does)

My limited understanding of Reactivity is that it is a measure of how quickly the aircraft will respond to a control input. I set it a bit below 100% to simulate it may take a second or two for the GA aircraft I fly to react to a control input. For example, I would expect a modern fighter jet to respond almost instantly to an aileron input, while at the other extreme perhaps, it may take a DC-3 or the Spruce Goose some seconds to respond. Reactivity is a way to add some inertia to the aircraft's control response. At least that's how I think of it. I'm open to other explanations if I'm off base here.

Al

Edited March 24, 20233 yr by ark

9 minutes ago, ark said:

My limited understanding of Reactivity is that it is a measure of how quickly the aircraft will respond to a control input

OK - that makes sense.  Well, I'm not going to reduce it for now since I seem to have an opposite affect taking place.  I'm getting what appears to be an appropriate response in the Sensitivity graph for the Y axis.  The response is not delayed beyond normal.

When viewing the elevator externally, the elevator is moving throughout its entire range - responding as it always has.  It's just that the aircraft itself is not responding or its vertical response is greatly delayed.  The elevator is moving up appropriately but the nose wheel is still planted even as the aircraft is accelerating beyond a hundred kts.

I'm beginning to wonder whether the CJ files were corrupted during the update.  I had this happen with the previous update and the TBM.  I had to delete that aircraft and force a reinstall.  After the reinstall the TBM worked perfectly.  I'll try the same thing with the CJ4.

8 minutes ago, RandallR said:

When viewing the elevator externally, the elevator is moving throughout its entire range - responding as it always has. 

If your Thrustmaster controller was failing I would expect you would have problems with more than just the CJ4. A reinstall of the CJ4 is certainly worth trying.

Al

Edited March 24, 20233 yr by ark

1 hour ago, RandallR said:

OK - that makes sense.  Well, I'm not going to reduce it for now since I seem to have an opposite affect taking place.  I'm getting what appears to be an appropriate response in the Sensitivity graph for the Y axis.  The response is not delayed beyond normal.

Sounds like your T16000M is working ok then.  When mine went bad it would be ok for a while, but occasionally jump to the extremes without me even touching the stick.   Other times it wouldn't respond when I commanded a pitch up, then all of the sudden it would REALLY pitch up on me.

1 hour ago, RandallR said:

When viewing the elevator externally, the elevator is moving throughout its entire range - responding as it always has.  It's just that the aircraft itself is not responding or its vertical response is greatly delayed.  The elevator is moving up appropriately but the nose wheel is still planted even as the aircraft is accelerating beyond a hundred kts.

Also double check and make sure the sim isn't accidentally set to the "Legacy" flight model.  I've had that happen after updates.  And the effect was more pronounced on some aircraft vs. others.

46 minutes ago, Mace said:

 

Also double check and make sure the sim isn't accidentally set to the "Legacy" flight model.  I've had that happen after updates.  And the effect was more pronounced on some aircraft vs. others.

Wow, had not heard that before  But that reminds me, I have had assistance settings turned on for what seemed no reason, so also worth checking that I think. 

Edited March 24, 20233 yr by ark