One POed United pilot.  I don't blame him.

https://onemileatatime.com/news/angry-united-pilot-sfo-atc/

Noel

Why would aircraft on the ground have priority over aircraft in the air (5:55 in the video)?

20 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

Why would aircraft on the ground have priority over aircraft in the air (5:55 in the video)?

I wondered about that myself Dugald.  Although if a taking off aircraft has taxied past the hold short line and is in position to take off on the runway might it have priority?  I recall an accident at night at KLAX some years ago where an airliner was cleared to land and came down on top of a commuter ready for takeoff.  My gut feeling is the departing aircraft on the same runway as the landing aircraft has the priority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_runway_disaster

Here's some discussion about that and rules.

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/landing-separation-requirements-tower-and-nontower-distance-requirements/

Noel

Yeah, a lot plays into the skill of the controllers and how well they roll with the flow. Those busy airports try to move as much metal as they can, but it's also impacted by outside forces. Sometimes peeps will slow roll their runway crossings, departures and roll outs as well. Things get so tight that one little pause will throw things off. It does remind me of my military days where there was always training going on in the tower and things would get hairy as soon as you had more than two aircraft in the pattern. Because of this, I would do IFR/VFR pattern work else where instead of trying to get it in on departure or on arrival. In the afternoon, you have everyone coming back trying to get in that last M010(beans). I preferred to leave out and one to a full stop on arrival. I also stayed away from busy airports as you can knock out more in minimum time vs constantly being vectored off, extended downwinds and multiple turns in holding. Unless they are a dedicated training base, most bases don't deal with a high traffic flow. Experienced ATC controllers on the other hand, may compress things a lot leading to one little burp and things get thrown off🤣. Good times!

There are clear regulations under FAR and the ATC handbook that prioritize landing aircraft or those on final approach over all other aircraft in flight or on the airport surface, except for emergencies or water operations. However, there are some exceptions such as when a glider has the right of way over airships or balloons. It is unfortunate when mistakes occur, and although pilots are often held responsible, air traffic controllers should not make this kind of statement. It is surprising that the UA pilot did not raise any concerns and it is unclear where the ATC supervisor was during the event.

I can see how this might happen...tower controller calls for an IFR release on a jet holding for takeoff with another on final 10 miles out, departure controller tells him he'll have a release in a minute, tower clears the departing jet onto hold, and then approach doesn't come through with the IFR release due to other emerging traffic considerations.  Having it happen twice to one jet is probably (hopefully) pretty rare.  A go-around from 4 miles out on final is inconvenient, but not unsafe.  But the alternative to dovetailing the traffic flow like that is a real slowdown in the throughput on the runway, which can become a big problem in its own right at a large busy airport.

When you're trying to fit ten lbs of doo-doo into a five lb bag, you're gonna get some on ya from time to time.

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

My gut feeling is the departing aircraft on the same runway as the landing aircraft has the priority.

I think the tower controller requested takeoff without delay. Maybe they didn't depart as quickly as they were supposed to.

5 hours ago, dmwalker said:

Why would aircraft on the ground have priority over aircraft in the air (5:55 in the video)?

He's being sarcastic. 

Edited June 5, 20232 yr by Les Parson
They don't; he's being sarcastic.

1 hour ago, Les Parson said:

He's being sarcastic. 

Unfortunately, typical in many places in US.

As a Veteran Microsoft Flight Simulator Pilot I don't see what the problem is here, in fact this happens every time I fly in Microsoft Flight Simulator going all the way back to 2002, sometimes I get 6 or 7 go arounds from the tower, perfectly normal 🤣🤣🤣

4 hours ago, Bob Scott said:

But the alternative to dovetailing the traffic flow like that is a real slowdown in the throughput on the runway, which can become a big problem in its own right at a large busy airport.

KSFO has two runways, 28L and 28R.  After the KLAX accident they restricted one runway to takeoffs and the other to landings.  Is there some reason KSFO can't do the same?

Noel

5 minutes ago, Matthew Kane said:

As a Veteran Microsoft Flight Simulator Pilot I don't see what the problem is here, in fact this happens every time I fly in Microsoft Flight Simulator going all the way back to 2002, sometimes I get 6 or 7 go arounds from the tower, perfectly norma

It's happened to me a lot in flight simulation.  After the first go around I land anyway.  Haven't had a sim mishap yet.

Noel

9 minutes ago, birdguy said:

KSFO has two runways, 28L and 28R.  After the KLAX accident they restricted one runway to takeoffs and the other to landings.  Is there some reason KSFO can't do the same?

Well KLAX actually has two pairs of parallel runways, so four runways in simultaneous operation, compared to KSFO's two pairs of crossed runways, which keeps things down to two operating at once.

Can't speak specifically to the hows/whys of traffic SOPs at KSFO.  I'd imagine wake turbulence separation requirements still make simultaneous arrival/departure ops on both runways more efficient in terms of throughput.  You can launch a departure as soon as landing traffic clears the runway, where you have to wait 2-4 minutes between large/heavy/super acft departures.  If you can interlace the arrivals and departures on a runway, you can realistically move an acft every minute, versus one every 2-4 minutes for departure or arrival-only ops when you have to observe 2-4 minutes departure separation and 4-8 mile arrival separation.

3 hours ago, birdguy said:

Is there some reason KSFO can't do the same?

At 03:42, the tower controller asks United 1390 if it can take a sidestep but it was already too late.

Right now, at 01:46 UTC, aircraft are taking off from 28L and landing on 28R. An  hour or so ago, there seemed to be a problem because several aircraft were going around and none were landing or taking off. It seemed to be a problem with UAL 1509 at around 00:20 UTC..

Edited June 6, 20232 yr by dmwalker

11 hours ago, LRBS said:

Unfortunately, typical in many places in US.

As mentioned previously on here, the amount of ASRs I've had to file away in the office over the years, the majority of them are due to the bad standard of ATC in the USA. 

Sorry but thats just facts. If ive been given 20 in a pile for a month or so, more than 10 will be American ATC.