MSFS tops Navigraph 2023 survey results

[Tuskin38 6,597]

15 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

I also want to add that the MSFS team and Blackshark AI do treat the satellite map data, to make the scenery even better when it's used in MSFS. Blackshark AI replaces the 2D satellite houses in the satellite data with 3D houses. I believe Blackshark AI is also replacing some of the vegetation (ie. bushes) in the 2D satellite data with 3D vegetation. Mind you, when I say Blackshark AI, it may be a combination of Blackshark AI and the MSFS team that is doing this - I don't know exactly where the responsibility is divided between Blackshark AI and the MSFS team.

Blackshark makes the models, but a majority of the house shapes and placements are based off 6-7 year old Open Street Map data.

I've seen buildings rendered where there are none, on either OpenStreetMap or Bing, so I'm not sure where that comes from.

We used to get new building models from Blackshark with every World Update, but I don't think they've added any since the Germany/Austria/Switzerland update.

Edited January 1 by Tuskin38

[DD_Arthur 1,077]

15 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

Displaying standard autogen buildings at oil terminals instead of circular tanks is one aspect that has surprised me. I would have thought that this would be a relatively easy fix.

Seems to be plenty of circular tank farm action to me.....

 

[Tuskin38 6,597]

1 hour ago, DD_Arthur said:

Seems to be plenty of circular tank farm action to me.....

That's photogrammetry, not autogen

Edited January 1 by Tuskin38

[abrams_tank 7,445]

19 hours ago, tonywob said:

This was something I got working to some degree for the Orbx TrueEarth XP and World2XPlane (Used in Simheaven) sceneries. If the building was round and in an industrial zone, there was a high probability it was a tank. It worked pretty well, but also there were occasionally funny ones such as unusually shaped houses becoming oil tanks. 

Correction on this.. it doesn't replace anything. Blackshark.ai created an additional 3D layer that sits on top of Bing aerial imagery. In fact, Blackshark's tech is now being used outside of MFS and is no longer exclusive: These should look familiar to anyone used to MFS's autogen, and other developers can also use it (for a license fee of course).

 

 

5 hours ago, Tuskin38 said:

Blackshark makes the models, but a majority of the house shapes and placements are based off 6-7 year old Open Street Map data.

I've seen buildings rendered where there are none, on either OpenStreetMap or Bing, so I'm not sure where that comes from.

We used to get new building models from Blackshark with every World Update, but I don't think they've added any since the Germany/Austria/Switzerland update.

I found the Blackshark AI partnership video with MSFS that explains some of the work that Blackshark AI does for MSFS:

In the video, Blackshark AI is also analyzing the vegetation, which I assume is 2D vegetation from the satellite image, before generating which I assume is the 3D vegetation. Unfortunately, they don't say exactly in the video how they generate the 3D vegetation, only to say that they handle vegetation around the world.

They also don't specifically state Openstreetmap in the video. For example, at timestamp 1:06 when the 2D buildings are replaced by 3D buildings, is the "before" imagery Openstreetmap? But maybe the timestamp at 1:06 is just a demonstration of the improvement that Blackshark AI's processes can do, not necessarily the source data that Blackshark AI is using.

I also wonder how Blackshark AI is replacing the 2D vegetation with 3D vegetation.  I did a quick check of a forested area in Portland, USA, and Openstreetmap doesn't seem to show the different type of vegetation when I checked this version of it, it just shows a blanket green area for trees: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/43.9995/-121.5442.  So I assume for vegetation, Blackshark AI is probably using the satellite imagery instead to generate the 3D trees?

In any case, IMO, Blackshark AI is definitely adding value to MSFS, and I think that just using the raw satellite data is not enough, the work that Blackshark AI does for MSFS is definitely enhancing the value and accuracy of MSFS terrain.

 

[GoranM 3,772]

20 hours ago, David Mills said:

I rarely go into an XP forum. But whenever I do read their websites and postings, they're almost invariably discussing some tortured, highly-contrived, ankle-behind-the-ear, Rube Goldberg method of trying to replace XP's default scenery to look like MSFS. 

Are they?  I must have missed those.  We have auto ortho.  And years prior to that, somewhere around XP9, ortho4xp was around.  It became mainstream around 2017.  World2XPlane was around in 2014.  All of this was well before MSFS came out.  So, X-Plane copying MSFS?  Nope.  Dare I risk saying it was MSFS copying what X-Plane had?  

You're welcome.

👍 😉

Nothing further than that to discuss.  But anyway, as you were.

And Happy New Year!

Edited January 1 by GoranM

[tonywob 4,770]

11 minutes ago, GoranM said:

Are they?  I must have missed those.  We have auto ortho.  And years prior to that, somewhere around XP9, ortho4xp was around.  It became mainstream around 2017.  World2XPlane was around in 2014.  All of this was well before MSFS came out.

Yep correct, I was working on TrueEarth Washington at the time the first MFS trailer was shown... TrueEarth GB was out a year before, and Ortho+Trees+BuildingFootprints have been around since even the XP9 days. I wrote my own tool World2XPlane in 2014 if I remember to replace an even older tool. 

So, I was never trying to make my sim and products look like MFS... because there wasn't an MFS. The idea was nothing new.. the only thing that is new is that they have vast resources (Bing) and money. 

[SAS443 1,729]

30 minutes ago, tonywob said:

. The idea was nothing new.. the only thing that is new is that they have vast resources (Bing) and money. 

Sounds like an executive at Blackberry or Nokia ca 2007-2008.

😉

[fsiscool 251]

1 hour ago, tonywob said:

The idea was nothing new.. the only thing that is new is that they have vast resources (Bing) and money. 

This is not correct. MSFS autogen has not only the building footprint but also e.g. the building height extracted by AI from the thrown shadow and roof colored correctly. Plus the building footprint does not only exist where there is OSM data. It exists for every single shack or lodge or barn on the entire globe. If MS would ask for the price per square kilometer of the TrueEarth products, MSFS would cost a fortune.

[tonywob 4,770]

31 minutes ago, fsiscool said:

This is not correct.

Yes it is, in terms of the TrueEarth GB regions.. the building footprints were heighted, as was every single tree (something MFS doesn't do yet). Many of those building footprints did not come from OSM either, but were from AI generated data with some data coming from OSM as well to determine building types (Which is exactly what MS seem to do as well). There was already tech around at the time that traced buildings and heighted them from shadows, etc.

What you are correct about is the cost... it cost a lot of money to get this data, and as such it made no business sense in many cases to continue, hence my comment about MS having vast resources to do this on a massive scale. I personally don't find their representation of the UK very good, it has far too many very tall trees and the terrain colours are too saturated, but without any provided way in the SDK to replace the tree data, autogen or roads, we're stuck with it as is (For most people it's probably fine).

My point was in response to David Mills's comment that we were trying to copy MS, which is simply not true and also pretty insulting for reasons I've already given. 

You could probably say I was one of the first victims of being replaced by AI.. but I moved on and now work on MFS products as well.

[threexgreen 3,152]

19 minutes ago, tonywob said:

My point was in response to David Mills's comment that we were trying to copy MS, which is simply not true and also pretty insulting for reasons I've already given.

I don't think his point was that XP people are trying to copy the technique deployed by MSFS to generate scenery, but rather that the end quality of the scenery is what people are trying to achieve to match that in MSFS.

In that sense, I've seen plenty of posts in the XP subforum where people were discussing the manual work required to add ortho scenery to XP vs. getting that type of scenery out of the box.

Edited January 1 by threegreen

[turbomax 3,296]

with the focus on "tortured, highly-contrived, ankle-behind-the-ear, Rube Goldberg method of trying to replace XP's default scenery"

MSFS is the first simulator where I have never ever tried to change anything scenery wise, let alone managing scenery layers, priorities and what have you, (except for cursing at a few trees on final approach 😁). I want to fly a simulator, not develop one.

Rube Goldberg - ahead of its time:

 

 

Edited January 1 by turbomax

[abrams_tank 7,445]

1 hour ago, SAS443 said:

Sounds like an executive at Blackberry or Nokia ca 2007-2008.

😉

What's interesting is that after the IPhone was released in 2007, RIM (Research in Motion) revenue continued to increase until its peak in 2011: https://www.statista.com/statistics/266240/global-revenue-of-rim-since-2004/.  For those that don't know, RIM was the maker of the Blackberry. You would think that when the IPhone was released, it was going to kill RIM and the Blackberry immediately, but it didn't kill it immediately. I think what happened was that each successive version of the IPhone after 2007 got better and better, and the ecosystem (apps) of the IPhone also got better and better, until around 2012 or so, consumers just figured out the IPhone was just so much better than the Blackberry, and Blackberry sales began to dip drastically.  Of course, Android phones entering in the market at that time didn't help the Blackberry either.

I'm not saying the exact same thing will happen in the home flight simulation market.  But it's definitely something that I will be fascinated to watch as it happens.  I will say this though - if the MSFS team executes very well with MSFS 2024 and MSFS 2024 has a very, very, good release, that will spell trouble for the competitors left in the market.  However, if MSFS 2024 is plagued by a lot of problems at the release, I think it will give a lifeline to the competition.

 

[SAS443 1,729]

21 minutes ago, tonywob said:

and also pretty insulting

And your assessment that MS/Asobo only has "money" and nothing more is not? What about the hundreds of talented programmer and artists behind this gigantic ecosystem?  

It's so difficult for some here to give one iota of credit to MSFS and the ideas and work that is required?

21 minutes ago, tonywob said:

You could probably say I was one of the first victims of being replaced by AI..

It all makes sense now.  Maybe you should've begun your post with this passage. 

[tonywob 4,770]

7 minutes ago, threegreen said:

In that sense, I've seen plenty of posts in the XP subforum where people were discussing the manual work required to add ortho scenery to XP vs. getting that type of scenery out of the box.

I agree and I think it's amazing that it has this scenery out of the box, what I have a problem with is that I can't replace it with something else (and I have asked Asobo many times for ways to do this). Some people enjoy doing this sort of thing, and I want to have better coloured terrain, more correct vegetation and buildings. For those that just want a good-looking scenery out of the box in the sim, there is no competition. 

[turbomax 3,296]

36 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

if the MSFS team executes very well with MSFS 2024 and MSFS 2024 has a very, very, good release

better not. this would bring the internet down to its knees on release day. imagine 1.000.000 downloads of ca. 200 GB = 200 Petabytes within 1 hour in Kiribati. 

Edited January 1 by turbomax