9 hours ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

Just flight is a publisher and not a complete developer (kind of like Aerosoft). Most of their aircraft is sold under their name are not made by them Not like PMDG of Fenix. Fenix sold 1 A320 in May 2022 and never released another product after that until they sort of corrected the A320 and we 2 years later have not seen the A319 or A321 because they say its not ready yet talk about Detail and systems. Just Flight still uses default Asobo assets you will not see that on PMDG or Fenix.

I use Vatsim frequently and all I see is a bunch of 737's and A320's flying all the time and its not even close with other airframes.

This is complete bunk.

1 hour ago, carlanthony24 said:

I really don't have a choice

You really do, it's by not buying. Admittedly, long-haul isn't well catered for as yet, but the BlueBird 757 and FBW A380 are appealing propositions and the TFDi MD-11 is in beta.

I don't understand the must-have desire people have when it's for an add-on from a dev they don't like, a product that isn't as good as they'd hoped or worse still, both of these statements bring true.

It's a bit like FSS and their E-Jets. The alternative for me is the JustFlight Avro RJ when it eventually releases.

There's a whole range of other (short- to mid-haul) aircraft available now and long-haul (hopefully) by the end of the year to keep us entertained.

11 minutes ago, F737MAX said:

You really do, it's by not buying. Admittedly, long-haul isn't well catered for as yet, but the BlueBird 757 and FBW A380 are appealing propositions and the TFDi MD-11 is in beta.

I don't understand the must-have desire people have when it's for an add-on from a dev they don't like, a product that isn't as good as they'd hoped or worse still, both of these statements bring true.

It's a bit like FSS and their E-Jets. The alternative for me is the JustFlight Avro RJ when it eventually releases.

There's a whole range of other (short- to mid-haul) aircraft available now and long-haul (hopefully) by the end of the year to keep us entertained.

Well we do. The 757 can't reach destinations that the triple can, used in the UK passenger wise by Jet2 who are the only UK company that still have them in use for passengers. FBW well we don't know when that will come. MD-11 I don't have much interest in. Specifically if I was to do BA operations I need the Triple for destinations that they serve it on. I did not say I did not like PMDG. Per top line can't do realistic operations If I did not have. 

The FSS E-Jets I still do not have but has soon as VNAV comes and few other things I will be getting. Personally I was rooting for them from the start compared to others and well they have delivered and promised. 

Edited March 16, 20242 yr by carlanthony24

24 minutes ago, F737MAX said:

You really do, it's by not buying. Admittedly, long-haul isn't well catered for as yet, but the BlueBird 757 and FBW A380 are appealing propositions and the TFDi MD-11 is in beta.

I don't understand the must-have desire people have when it's for an add-on from a dev they don't like, a product that isn't as good as they'd hoped or worse still, both of these statements bring true.

It's a bit like FSS and their E-Jets. The alternative for me is the JustFlight Avro RJ when it eventually releases.

There's a whole range of other (short- to mid-haul) aircraft available now and long-haul (hopefully) by the end of the year to keep us entertained.

Everyone assumes that when someone criticizes something from a dev, they "hate" them.  The exact opposite is true in most cases.

Most of us really want PMDG to succeed.  They have been our "go-to" aircraft for years.  They do a great job overall and their support is excellent.

After watching the Q&A I am really encouraged to see that they are going in the right direction by adding RF legs, CPDLC, GSX, more EFB(UFT) options, and much more.  Overall, the triple will still be a great add-on but does appear to lack in certain areas.  The art department is one of those.  I'm not saying it's bad by any means, just isn't mind blowing like some others.  

You mention the FSS e-jets.  That model is stunning (inside and out). Compare that panel with the 777.  When that one is done it "should" be awesome.  I bought that one out of shear curiosity and boredom and could clearly see the potential there.

As for the triple, it's definitely a must have.  We are in a serious long-haul drought in the sim right now with nothing close in the horizon other than a couple of mid-grade projects (ini, aerosoft). That's why everyone is overly excited about their triple and wants it to be good. 

The bar is raised with our new'ish sim....as it should be.  

We also need to stop going hard left or hard right when someone posts something.  Just because it's the internet doesn't mean more than one thing can't be true at the same time.  Just because your screen in 1 dimensional doesn't mean your life is also.

Edited March 16, 20242 yr by Jeff Nielsen

48 minutes ago, Jeff Nielsen said:

Everyone assumes that when someone criticizes something from a dev, they "hate" them.  The exact opposite is true in most cases.

I'm a vocal critic of PMDG's recent practices and what I perceived them to be falling short of their previously very high standards. That doesn't mean I "hate" them (a verb I didn't use, btw) either.

However, there has been a significant amount of comments both here and elsewhere on social media where it was said by a simmer that they didn't like the developer, but will buy from them anyway. I find that strange.

I also believe that if a product falls short in your expectations, don't buy it. Let the developer know it doesn't meet the required standard and if they're any good, they'll listen to feedback and incorporate the requested changes/improvements to encourage more purchases. Once a developer has your money, the incentive to deliver those improvements is drastically diminished.

Don't think it's jumping on someone to say that there is a choice of not purchasing when it's been said 'there is no choice.' If you want an A350 right now, the choice is to buy XP and the FF A350. It's not a great choice for most people, but it is a choice nonetheless.

55 minutes ago, F737MAX said:

I'm a vocal critic of PMDG's recent practices and what I perceived them to be falling short of their previously very high standards. That doesn't mean I "hate" them (a verb I didn't use, btw) either.

However, there has been a significant amount of comments both here and elsewhere on social media where it was said by a simmer that they didn't like the developer, but will buy from them anyway. I find that strange.

I also believe that if a product falls short in your expectations, don't buy it. Let the developer know it doesn't meet the required standard and if they're any good, they'll listen to feedback and incorporate the requested changes/improvements to encourage more purchases. Once a developer has your money, the incentive to deliver those improvements is drastically diminished.

Don't think it's jumping on someone to say that there is a choice of not purchasing when it's been said 'there is no choice.' If you want an A350 right now, the choice is to buy XP and the FF A350. It's not a great choice for most people, but it is a choice nonetheless.

I said "someone" meaning, in general, not you specifically.  Sorry if it sounded otherwise.  I hear what you're saying though.  I do think you can not like a dev and still buy from them, unless you mean their products themselves.  Hard to say what someone 'actually' means when they make a statement like that.

Given this is a MSFS forum, I think we're right to say that the triple is the only option, for MSFS, at least as far as payware goes.  Having said that, the freeware devs have really come through for us in the meantime.  Horizon, FBW, WT on the MS side as well.  DFD is looking to be really great also.  Given their quality so far, I also think it's fair to say pay ware devs will have to really step it up or maintain a high bar.   Not to get off topic, but this is also a reason why I think Fenix did really good with not only their product itself, but the price point as well.  They nailed both sides of the house.

Anyways, in the end, I think PMDG will come through and stay as a top-level dev. At least I hope so.  

Edited March 16, 20242 yr by Jeff Nielsen

52 minutes ago, Jeff Nielsen said:

really good with not only their product itself, but the price point as well.  They nailed both sides of the house.

This is why I believe there's vociferous criticism of PMDG. The new devs, both freeware and payware, have raised the bar so as to leave PMDG looking tired and out of touch in various aspects. This is despite pricing and defending their efforts as if they were by far and away the pre-eminent aircraft developer in MSFS. Because of this, I feel we need more Boeing competition in MSFS.

However, as I said earlier in this thread, PMDG has thankfully recognised the critical feedback has merit. Though the visuals are being questioned, PMDG's moves to include some much-needed and long sought after new features and improvements are to be welcomed.

4 hours ago, Jeff Nielsen said:

Everyone assumes that when someone criticizes something from a dev, they "hate" them.  The exact opposite is true in most cases.


 

The epitome of a Avsim users these days (say something negative and its all hate, nonsense). Not one person I have seen want them to fold up shop but "just to get better". They can certainly use some improvement now in 2024 to their future products though. That is all folks are asking.

Edited March 16, 20242 yr by JBDB-MD80

3 hours ago, F737MAX said:

I'm a vocal critic of PMDG's recent practices and what I perceived them to be falling short of their previously very high standards. That doesn't mean I "hate" them (a verb I didn't use, btw) either.

I haven't been a PMDG customer for long (first product NGXu for P3D, mainly to get the 2 for 1 deal in MSFS). Since then, I've purchased the complete 737 line for P3D, and both the P3D 744 and 747-8.

Based on those experiences, I've got the MSFS 737-7 (because BBJ) and the DC-6.

So far, I have to say I'm very satisfied with their products, though I'm not a "hard core" airliner vpilot. I could (maybe) see someone who's deeply into Boeings or the IRL pilots being irritated by some of the delayed fixes & features, but for me, if something doesn't work, I just consider it a "failure" and I work around it. I like hand flying unless at cruise, so maybe that's why it just doesn't concern me.

Heck, I even prefer the new pricing where I got the BBJ for $70 instead of the $130 I was "forced" to pay in P3D. And I'll be honest, if the $36 736 had come out first I would've stopped there and been satisfied except for giving up the extra 1500NM of range in the BBJ.

YMMV, of course, but I've presently no reason not to continue giving them money.

Quote

However, there has been a significant amount of comments both here and elsewhere on social media where it was said by a simmer that they didn't like the developer, but will buy from them anyway. I find that strange.

I'm apathetic to developers personae. We're never gonna hang out and their attitudes, good or bad, simply don't affect me at all. Hearing from a dev is always interesting - sometimes in a good way, sometimes less so, but:

I can't think of a single time I've decided whether I was going to buy an addon or not based on my opinion of the dev's personality/statements/personal reputation AT ALL.

All I care about is whether I'm interested in their product, the PRODUCTS' reputation for fidelity/quality, and value for money of the product itself. If value is low, then it comes down to what alternatives there are.

Quote

I also believe that if a product falls short in your expectations, don't buy it. Let the developer know it doesn't meet the required standard and if they're any good, they'll listen to feedback and incorporate the requested changes/improvements to encourage more purchases.

Once a developer has your money, the incentive to deliver those improvements is drastically diminished.

Amen.

However, it is undeniably true that some developers DO respond to community feedback, even from folks who already bought the product.

35 minutes ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

The epitome of a Avsim users these days (say something negative and its all hate, nonsense).

Not one person I have seen want them to fold up shop but "just to get better".

I see it everywhere. In fact, the discourse on AvSim is frequently more civilized than other flight sim forums.

I've seen quite a bit of ill will towards PMDG, actually. Particularly whenever the prospect of a competing Boeing arises.

1 minute ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I see it everywhere. In fact, the discourse on AvSim is frequently more civilized than other flight sim forums.

I've seen quite a bit of ill will towards PMDG, actually. Particularly whenever the prospect of a competing Boeing arises.

No its not just stop it. Not true. PMDG has no competition in ESP or MSFS platform PERIOD. If someone else is hating who care's they don't matter.

Edited March 17, 20242 yr by JBDB-MD80

2 hours ago, F737MAX said:

This is why I believe there's vociferous criticism of PMDG. The new devs, both freeware and payware, have raised the bar so as to leave PMDG looking tired and out of touch in various aspects. This is despite pricing and defending their efforts as if they were by far and away the pre-eminent aircraft developer in MSFS. Because of this, I feel we need more Boeing competition in MSFS.

However, as I said earlier in this thread, PMDG has thankfully recognised the critical feedback has merit. Though the visuals are being questioned, PMDG's moves to include some much-needed and long sought after new features and improvements are to be welcomed.

I just can't agree with this sentiment. 

In terms of pricing, PMDG set the tone with the DC-6, discounting it 15% from P3D. The 737-700 is less than HALF the price of what it cost in P3D, all options included.

And if that weren't enough, the 736 is, by far, the cheapest PMDG ever released, and, by far (again), the lowest prices "Tier 1" High Fidelity jetliner available. I'm SURE they have captured a LOT of incremental/future business with the 736 as a "loss leader" product.

AAAAND, don't forget, PMDG publicised their pricing FIRST (737-700 was released before it's competition). So if anyone's encouraged competitive pricing in MSFS, it is, arguably, them.

Contrast that with Fenix, which is only US $6.00 dollars cheaper, AND until extremely recently had basically nothing in terms of variants/options relative to the -700.

Also see Leonardo, who IIRC is the most expensive airliner in the sim. One which has received a great deal of criticism in terms of value for money.

Also see Just Flight's latest liners, both priced at US $70. Sure, they throw in "more" variants than PMDG, but the diffs between their variants and PMDGs are, AFAIK, far smaller (ref PMDGs extensive in-cockpit equipment options). And arguably, JF's 1970s liners should be cheaper because they are not as sophisticated as either Fenix or PMDG's highly automated modern airliners.

I'm a capitalist, so I'm all for fair market competition. But I just don't see how PMDG is somehow the poster boy for "monopoly" (a ridiculous aspersion frequently leveled at them elsewhere).

In terms of new freeware devs, I'm not aware of any who are at par with PMDG or Fenix. Not a criticism due to being FREE, but again, I don't think they're pressuring the Tier 1 devs at all.

Does all this mean I can't think of anything PMDG could do better? Hardly.

Edited March 17, 20242 yr by UrgentSiesta
Correction

36 minutes ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

No its not just stop it. Not true. PMDG has no competition in ESP or MSFS platform PERIOD. If someone else is hating who care's they don't matter.

Um...what?

PMDG have plenty of competition. Despite my personal preference for Boeings, there are alternative airliners that are every bit as good, and perhaps better.

If PMDG didn't make a good liner, I'd buy something else. 

In fact, the v2 Fenix is shaping up to be quite interesting instead of just defaulting to PMDG s 777.

2 hours ago, F737MAX said:

This is why I believe there's vociferous criticism of PMDG. The new devs, both freeware and payware, have raised the bar so as to leave PMDG looking tired and out of touch in various aspects. This is despite pricing and defending their efforts as if they were by far and away the pre-eminent aircraft developer in MSFS. Because of this, I feel we need more Boeing competition in MSFS.

However, as I said earlier in this thread, PMDG has thankfully recognised the critical feedback has merit. Though the visuals are being questioned, PMDG's moves to include some much-needed and long sought after new features and improvements are to be welcomed.

They have.  100% agree.  It's too bad half the viewers of the 2 second reveal didn't know about the Q&A (according to the viewer numbers).  Maybe I missed something, but I only found about it in this thread, after the fact, I think from you guys...ROFL.

The Q&A was actually really good, IMO.  RSR doesn't give himself enough credit in those regards.

6 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Um...what?

 

Name me one developer out there that makes boeings better than PMDG. I will stop posting.

Edited March 17, 20242 yr by JBDB-MD80