4 hours ago, CO2Neutral said:

This issue with smokers and smoking is that the process affects others.  And that's the primary issue ... it impacts others that don't smoke and don't want to inhale it. 

No, because many govts. are even banning smoking *outside*, which doesn't affect others unless they're very close to the smoker.  Many won't even allow smoking sections where smokers are segregated so don't bother other people.  They really want to outright ban it, but big tobacco makes a lot of campaign donations so that won't happen anytime soon.  The reason for the smoking bans comes down to money, as most countries have govt. funded healthcare and smoking increases costs.

People live longer today mainly because of antibiotics, medicines, and better healthcare, not so much because the water and food are tested better, although that helps for sure.  Many people 100+ years ago could die from a simple cut or common cold, and many babies didn't survive, so a lot more people died young.  This is where the low age for life expectancy comes in, not because there weren't people who lived into their 80s, but because so many died young from things that we don't even worry about today.

Dave

17 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

are even banning smoking *outside*, which doesn't affect others unless they're very close to the smoker.

Secondhand smoke is harmful 25-30ft away when not in an enclosed environment which is why many businesses say 50ft away from the building.  Health Problems caused by Secondhand smoke article here.  Please do check the references provided for all the information in that article and then check the references to see how qualified they are ... but it does impact others within a certain radius even outside.

And where did all those antibiotics, medicines, and better healthcare come from?  Hint, scientific research (discovery and understanding) ... not leaches or lobotomies 😉 

Another CDC older article here. (again with references if you want to check them)

To quote:

 

2 hours ago, CO2Neutral said:

No, not the case ... see how you feel after catching a fish and eating it when it had mercury or lead in it.  Or go drink water from a stream, lake, river without knowing it's potential for virus that kills humans ... nature doesn't care that some animals upstream used a lake to deposit feces/urine on a regular basis. 

Again no, without science we could not produce anywhere near the quantity of food to support 8 Billion humans.  Why do you think "organic" foods cost so much more, yields are much lower.  

In the 1900s growing food and eating it was the only option (which is still the only option today just helped along with science - DNA and machinery and intelligent planning for weather), average age was 32 for those growing food and eating it in 1900s so no they weren't living to 71 on average.

Eating processed foods is a choice and not all processed foods are the same.  GM food (DNA modified) can be both, healthier and also less healthy ... depends on the desired result, but either way those modifications happen at the seed level and are still grown and cultivated from "nature" (rain/soil/sunlight).

What are you ranting about Bro??? 🤣

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No, not the case ... see how you feel after catching a fish and eating it when it had mercury or lead in it.

Maybe your fish has mercury but mine doesn't, I already said "I live in New Zealand so the best agriculture on the planet"

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Again no, without science we could not produce anywhere near the quantity of food to support 8 Billion humans.  Why do you think "organic" foods cost so much more, yields are much lower.  

Not true, historical population booms were China and India due to food accessibility and diet not modern agriculture, this is the reason why these are the largest populations on the planet, they didn't get that population during modern times

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In the 1900s growing food and eating it was the only option (which is still the only option today just helped along with science - DNA and machinery and intelligent planning for weather), average age was 32 for those growing food and eating it in 1900s so no they weren't living to 71 on average.

Genetically modifying seeds or creating breeds of livestock, dogs, cats or anything else is a centuries old practice and nothing new

Quote

Eating processed foods is a choice and not all processed foods are the same.  GM food (DNA modified) can be both, healthier and also less healthy ... depends on the desired result, but either way those modifications happen at the seed level and are still grown and cultivated from "nature" (rain/soil/sunlight).

Agree we have choices, I chose to move to New Zealand, and I chose to grow my own food, and eat meat from within a few km's of my house, but this practice is centuries old as well, nothing new

Now I chose to go to the beach because we are on summer holiday 🏖️

Edited January 2, 20251 yr by Matthew Kane

31 minutes ago, CO2Neutral said:

Secondhand smoke is harmful 25-30ft away when not in an enclosed environment which is why many businesses say 50ft away from the building. 

Yeah, whatever.  If you like all the govt. control then more power to you.  I can recommend places to live where people like you can be regulated to death, but at least you'll be "CO2 Neutral", right?  It is plain silly to have to stay 50ft away from someone who has a cigarette or cigar because it might be harmful to your health. 

Of course water treatment has had a big impact on human life expectancy.  Lots of people used to die from Dysentery and water-borne diseases.  I'm just saying that the medicines and treatments available today are a big reason why life expectancy has shot up so much to the point where the average age of death is now in the 80s.  For example, there are tens of thousands of people in their 60s and 70s who would be dead today if they couldn't get the now routine procedure of putting a stint put in their artery to prevent a heart attack or stroke.  Then there are all the drugs for blood pressure, diabetes, etc. etc.  Otherwise, even with water treatment, the average age of death would probably be 10 years less, especially with the sedentary lifestyle and unhealthy diet of most Americans.

Dave

3 hours ago, dave2013 said:

Yeah, whatever.  If you like all the govt. control then more power to you.

I figured you would not read the link or the supporting research (which was not funded by “the government”), it’s all about YOU and ONLY YOU, you own everything and don’t share anything on this planet?

You seem very confused even with you own consciousness … so you agree that science has increased the average life span of everyone?

4 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

this is the reason why these are the largest populations on the planet, they didn't get that population during modern times

Wrong see here.  But I'm sure your data is much more reliable ... how else could it be right?

4 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

I chose to grow my own food, and eat meat from within a few km's of my house, but this practice is centuries old as well, nothing new

And I hope your choice to do screening/testing for the multitude of diseases that come with animals slaughter and eat  ... hate to see you get mad cow disease, Salmonella, E. coli, Listeria, shigella, Campylobacter, Brucella, etc. ... so do you travel to see a Doctor or do you just try to tuff it out and/or die from one of these common diseases under the "natural" life cycle? 

4 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

Genetically modifying seeds or creating breeds of livestock, dogs, cats or anything else is a centuries old practice and nothing new

1988 was the first time GM was approved for use in foods.  Prior to that it was less science and more hope ... going back to 8000 BCE, very primitive and no where near as effective.

 

Here in America one first lady's adopted "cause" was for healthy school foods in the cafeteria, instead of chain store hamburgers. It was an unpopular cause, and accomplished little as most of the kids wanted things that tasted good instead of a healthy diet.

The prevalence of obesity among adults was 40.3% during August 2021–August 2023. Diabetes is sure to follow.

1960–1962: Approximately 13% of American adults were obese

1999–2000: 30.5% of adults were obese

2017–March 2020: 41.9% of adults were obese

August 2021–August 2023: 40.3% of adults were obese

The first world is not becoming more healthy through science. They are becoming unhealthy at an alarming rate. Life expectancy is not showing a huge drop so far, but just wait for time bomb results surely predicted by the stats above. Diabetes causes cancer and heart attacks but the death certificates don't usually indicate that real root cause. Only the resulting disease.

4 hours ago, CO2Neutral said:

it’s all about YOU and ONLY YOU, you own everything and don’t share anything on this planet?

DAMNED right!  Now, don't you have a protest to attend somewhere?

Gluing yourself to a road is just so Last Week. Up to date protesters glue themselves to railroad tracks!

As for me, I'm going to be eating junk food and smoking fat cigars while counting down the days to late January.

For future reference:

"<PLONK> The sound a newbie makes as he falls to the bottom of a kill file. From USENET. "

Hook

The discussion related to obesity and smoking pulled me here!

Being a doctor (probably a surgeon), these are some of my viewpoints and advices to every person on this Earth:

Smoking-

Smoking affects our body by 2 ways. One is by the harmful effect of the Nicotine drug present in cigarettes as well as the harmful effects of tobacco. Nicotine can increase BP, decrease blood flow to heart and can also narrow coronary arteries leading to CAD. I dealt with several patients with CAD when I was an intern. Most of it was due to cigarette smoking. Some patients suffered a cardiac arrest just due to CAD and prolonged smoking. Tobacco can also lead to CAD. Next is the harmful gases. These gases damage our lungs particularly the alveoli. It can lead to several diseases like emphysema. It can cause severe lung blockage and difficulties in breathing.

Obesity-

Nothing to say much here! I saw people relating it to "junk" or "unhealthy" food. It's true but do you know that 75% obesity in the world is due to lack of physical activity! You heard it right! Lack of physical activity, exercises are the main reason. I think it's useless to say about what all medical complexities one can undergo if he/she doesn't check his/her obese reasons. The most common complexity one has to undergo is "DIABETES MELLITUS". In Asia, where the carbohydrate intake in diet is very high, every 2 out of 5 person are suffering from this disease. In the world, after every 15 min, one person is becoming diabetic. I can assure you that every 4 out of 10 patient visits a doctor in India due to DIABETES. In India, currently Juvenile Diabetes is also becoming common. This is just because of our unhealthy habits which we develop from our school days. Nevertheless, other than lifestyle issues, genetic makeup also makes a deciding factor for Diabetes. But reality is this that only 35% of the world Diabetes is due to genetic inheritance. So for obesity, I would say just eat healthy, consume as much calories as needed, and the most important BURN CALORIES!

So both smoking and obesity is a big problem worldwide. We doctors can only advice. It's you who can make it happen in order to live a better life.

That's all what I wanted to say! I think I went off topic but I think everyone is now well aware to say "bad is ultimately bad"!

Thank you!

Edited January 2, 20251 yr by USMC Aviator

@USMC Aviator EXERCISE???  I thought the doctor said "Extra Fries"!! 😱

No one has been "Off Topic" so far!  As long as no violent arguments take place....carry on!

13 minutes ago, USMC Aviator said:

Nothing to say much here! I saw people relating it to "junk" or "unhealthy" food. It's true but do you know that 75% obesity in the world is due to lack of physical activity! You heard it right! Lack of physical activity, exercises are the main reason.

 

I would say that obesity is a complex issue with a number of causal factors responsible. Sleep deprivation, stress, sedentary lifestyle, diet,  hormone imbalances, obesity gene, genetics, drugs, ethnicity,  environmental factors,  gut microbiome. But what we can say is that the garbage we eat these days is a very serious issue and not just in terms of obesity, in terms of depression, dental cavities, mental disorders, skin issues, etc.

2 minutes ago, charliearon said:

As long as no violent arguments take place....carry on!

 

Grrr..... how dare you say that. 😡

 

Time to Ban Martin?? 🤔

6 minutes ago, martin-w said:

I would say that obesity is a complex issue with a number of causal factors responsible.

You are undoubtedly correct! Number of factors are responsible for obesity. But according to GMC, "We human should understand first what's in our hand". For Obesity, burning inadequate calories have been a major issue since the last decade. Dependency on technology, advancement of world, high standards of living, lavish lifestyle are all to be a reason. I also agree that the "garbage" we eat today is also a huge issue. But my argument is, Can we eat something other than this so called "garbage"? The answer can be yes for some people but no for me. We all are aware of organic farming, but we all are also aware of the prices of organic food. I live in a developing country. In my country all people are not rich. We still have to battle poverty, hunger and illness. Unlike developed countries, people in developing or underdeveloped countries can't afford these organic foods. And to just say, 70% of the world is still developing or underdeveloped. So myself being a doctor in a developing country, can rarely advice patients on consuming these farm fresh foods. Although even if we advice it, patients won't follow it for a long time. It's a issue of economy? Yes! How to battle it? Sorry I can't answer it because I am not an economist or political expert. It was some days ago that my neighbor's son got ill. After diagnosing him, I found it was just a food poisoning which occurred after the Christmas party. Just to say, he was also obese and wasn't physically active. He used to just play video games and never play outdoor games. He was overweight at a very young age. After giving all the medications, my neighbor, who was his father, asked me that he consumed a lot of junk food in school canteen, what should he do? I just said "You may restrict him to eat those, but your efforts will go in vain. He is a child, he is still unaware of the harsh reality. Junk foods are tastier than leafy vegetables, so even if you restrict him, he will eat it whenever he finds the eyes are not on him. The thing which you can do is to compel him to do exercise. Don't advice him to do hard workouts, just 1 hour of jogging and yoga is just what he needs to be fit!"

10 hours ago, CO2Neutral said:

I figured you would not read the link or the supporting research (which was not funded by “the government”), it’s all about YOU and ONLY YOU, you own everything and don’t share anything on this planet?

You seem very confused even with you own consciousness … so you agree that science has increased the average life span of everyone?

First, I don't trust the CDC or FDA, so any links to articles from those sources are not to be trusted IMO, therefore I don't bother reading them.

Of course science has improved everyone's lives in many ways.  However, this does not mean that all scientists can be trusted.  I worked with scientists for decades and know from personal experience that not only are they fallible, but they have many other negative traits that many human beings share such as greed, envy, dishonesty, and selfishness. They are not better than the rest of us simply because they have a PhD.  "Trust the science" actually means "trust the scientists", which, as many of us know now, is a risky prospect.

No, it is not only about "me".  However, the individual must be given priority over the collective, otherwise we all end up as slaves to the State or whatever force ends up usurping our natural rights.  This is proven and has happened in many places throughout history.  Collectivism doesn't work because it defies human nature and quashes liberty.  When disputes between individuals arise, we can have reasonable laws and a judicial system to deal with them.  Moreover, advocates of certain agendas such as yourself essentially want to take away my liberty and force *your* desires on to me without my consent because you claim that you have good intentions and are doing it for the good of everyone.  You know the saying about good intentions, right?

I'm not too worried about GMO food.  It's been around a long time and so far I haven't seen evidence that it is harming people.  Perhaps I am wrong on this.  One thing I do know is that without GMO crops, much less food would be produced and millions would starve.

Dave