12 hours ago, FedDriver said:

I mean, multiple big streamers have said they do MSFS because it gets them more views. More views.

Who are these big streamers? Of the ones I regularly watch, I've never heard viewer count being a factor.

V1 Sim: Currently streaming 2024 predominantly and he jokingingly calls 2020 the dead sim. His reasons are that 2024 does not look ancient, has the the career mode and is overall the more enjoyable sim compared to the others.

 

XP72: Is a big fan of the XP platform (hence the name) but mostly streams 2020/2024. He has more fun on the MSFS platforms, loves the superior graphics and 2024's improved flight model has caused him to enjoy flying in that sim more (of course, the current state of the sim is a drawback). His viewer count is consistent whether he is streaming XP or MSFS. 

Edited February 17, 20251 yr by Krakin

14 hours ago, FedDriver said:

Like theres the fact that landing gears only have one contact point, so a330's touches down same way as an cessna. And its of such little important to the "sim" community, that is so far down in the wishlist forum, that Asobo doesnt even have it in their own wishlist. In my opinion, its another extremely important component for ground physics. So its a shame.

TLDR: Streamers likely dont choose what sim they fly in based on how good its physics are. They choose what gets them engagement based on their community. Especially the big ones earning thousands a month from it. And some people certainly refuse to acknowledge MSFS shortcoming due to their own biases since its their main sim, and potentially the only sim they've ever flown.

That being said, MSFS is still my favorite sim and I can hardly look at any other.

First of all just to ensure do you have 2024? The ground physics are very different vs 2020 (i.e. no more modelling of wheels as single points or undercarriages as single contact points on landing etc). The A330 most certainly does not touch down the same way as a Cessna. See https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/664166-why-msfs-2024-has-the-best-ground-physics-for-a-flight-sim/page/4/#findComment-5370752 for a summary of comments on 2024 ground handling from various IRL pilots and simmers . When 320 Sim Pilot reviewed the sim he also specifically commented on how in 2024 the Beluga's wheels behave realistically now on landing, i.e. rear undercarriage's wheels in the back hit the ground first then the front ones as they should IRL, etc.

And completely agree that streamers don't choose what sim they fly based purely on the physics (or some other aspect). I didn't really care to answer in more detail in that post you quoted, but what I was alluding to there was exactly what you said.. the streamers are flying and showing MSFS more than other sims due to its popularity and engagement in the community, *not* due to some bias the flying house accessory was trying to accuse them of 🙂 It's also true that a good majority of "serious simmers" are also using MSFS as their main/exclusive sim per the last two Navigraph surveys (and it's also pretty evident perusing fora like avsim where serious simmers frequent), so that also motivates the IRL pilot streamers to focus mostly on MSFS (like the various 3rd party devs of high-fidelity aircraft have).

And similarly, when these IRL pilots comment on any aspect of the sim aircraft they're reviewing (or comparing to other sim's aircraft), when they're being positive or praising some aspects or are saying that MSFS 2024 flight and ground physics are better, that also doesn't mean they are "biased". (otherwise when they were being positive about other sims they were being biased too). I mean I get it, for those diehards of other sims who feel only their pet sim can do some aspect(s) of simming the best/right way, I suppose throwing out accusations of bias is one way of comforting themselves. MSFS is certainly capable of being good at multiple things, be it visuals or core flight fidelity, be it for fun/casual use or for serious simming use, be it low/slow GA vs airliner ops, etc. One doesn't need to come at the expense of another.

When it comes to the likes of long-time IRL pilots and simmers like V1 Simulations, 320 Sim Pilot, A330 Driver, Into the Blue Simulations, and various others, and when they're all consistently praising 2024's advancements in flight and ground physics, then I'm taking their opinions to the bank because they've always been straight shooters and have a lot of experience/expertise, in addition to believing what I'm seeing with my own eyes course 🙂
 

Edited February 17, 20251 yr by lwt1971

18 hours ago, FedDriver said:

landing gears only have one contact point

wait what 😕

i find this news quite traumatic

6 hours ago, Krakin said:

Who are these big streamers? Of the ones I regularly watch, I've never heard viewer count being a factor.

V1 Sim: Currently streaming 2024 predominantly and he jokingingly calls 2020 the dead sim. His reasons are that 2024 does not look ancient, has the the career mode and is overall the more enjoyable sim compared to the others.

 

XP72: Is a big fan of the XP platform (hence the name) but mostly streams 2020/2024. He has more fun on the MSFS platforms, loves the superior graphics and 2024's improved flight model has caused him to enjoy flying in that sim more (of course, the current state of the sim is a drawback). His viewer count is consistent whether he is streaming XP or MSFS. 

I don't think there's any doubt that lots/most people find MSFS more fun as a sim - it looks incredible and has tons of addons - but I think this is a little circular - if XPlane 12 had all the same addons, aircraft, scenery etc, I think it would be streamed a lot more

9 minutes ago, EGLD said:

wait what 😕

i find this news quite traumatic

That's only true of MSFS 2020.
 

14 minutes ago, EGLD said:

wait what 😕

i find this news quite traumatic

Only true of pre SU15 2020 to be exact.

2 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

That's only true of MSFS 2020.
 

I "thought" it was also true of any plane in 24 that doesn't utilize the updated ground physics.  I thought I had read the developer had to code it for it to take advantage of the new model but I could be convoluting threads... 

Did we ever see a list of the A/C with updated ground physics?  

30 minutes ago, psolk said:

I "thought" it was also true of any plane in 24 that doesn't utilize the updated ground physics.  I thought I had read the developer had to code it for it to take advantage of the new model but I could be convoluting threads... 

Did we ever see a list of the A/C with updated ground physics?  

Ya good point, it's an opt-in feature.. and yes would be great of to have a list of aircraft (default and 3rd party) that use the new ground physics and other opt-in features. There used to be an old thread on the official forums that tracked a list of aircraft that uses CFD, updated propeller physics, etc and then the maintainer also started to update to track any aircraft taking advantage the MSFS 2020 SU15 new ground physics flight model config parameters (partial backport of the larger revamp in 2024). But don't believe he or anyone else have updated the list for 2024 aircraft.

That said, 320 Sim Pilot was testing the default Beluga in 2024 which now exhibits at least some of the new ground/landing physics (i.e. undercarriage not as single point of contact.. see at this timestamp his flight in the Beluga in the first week of 2024's release: https://youtu.be/lS1rXzruzi4?t=1947 ... need to go back see his and other pilots' latest videos). The default A330 is the same. Of the payware 2024 heavy aircraft using the new ground handling I know of the iniBuilds A300, believe the 2024 version of the Fenix too, and surely the upcoming ini A350.

 

Edited February 17, 20251 yr by lwt1971

3 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

Ya good point, it's an opt-in feature.. and yes would be great of to have a list of aircraft (default and 3rd party) that use the new ground physics and other opt-in features. There used to be an old thread on the official forums that tracked a list of aircraft that uses CFD, updated propeller physics, etc and then the maintainer also started to update to track any aircraft taking advantage the MSFS 2020 SU15 new ground physics flight model config parameters (partial backport of the larger revamp in 2024). But don't believe he or anyone else have updated the list for 2024 aircraft.

That said, 320 Sim Pilot was testing the default Beluga in 2024 which now exhibits at least some of the new ground/landing physics (i.e. undercarriage not as single point of contact.. see at this timestamp his flight in the Beluga in the first week of 2024's release: https://youtu.be/lS1rXzruzi4?t=1947 ... need to go back see his and other pilots' latest videos). The default A330 is the same. Of the payware 2024 heavy aircraft using the new ground handling I know of the iniBuilds A300, believe the 2024 version of the Fenix too, and surely the upcoming ini A350.

 

Ya know I didn't even think about tilting bogies when I heard about the multiple points of contact for wheels in 2024, are you sure that is what they are referring to?  I was thinking "each wheel" previously only had one point of contact whereas now they have multiple to better derive friction and more accurate ground handling.  In essence there is now a contact patch or multiple points of contact per wheel not bogie just as a real tire is not touching the ground in one spot but over an entire area on the ground...  I was thinking of the actual friction coefficient of the wheel... My one tire has 16 IR patches across it that get analyzed in the data after every session so my mind naturally went there...

The 777 has tilting bogies that touch down rear wheel first in 2020...  So I'm really not sure that's what they meant but as always I could be wrong.   You can see them in the 777 preview video below at 30:30:  

We don't even know if the Beluga takes advantage of the new ground physics which makes it all the more ironic that people are talking about how much better it is in 24 when some of them were probably using planes that actually had the same ground handling characteristics as in 2020 without even realizing it...  I think like most of these threads usually started by the same person about MSFS 24 being the greatest or the first at something there is usually a more accurate middle ground like this thread has demonstrated.  The technology is available but the ground physics are per plane.

That's the most important take away from this entire thread for me is that it is an opt in feature and we have no idea who has actually opted in other than I think we "know" the 172 is using them and as such performs much better in 24... 

It also helps to elaborate on the difference(s) between 2024 "compatible" vs "built for 2024" 

 

Edited February 17, 20251 yr by psolk

28 minutes ago, psolk said:

Ya know I didn't even think about tilting bogies when I heard about the multiple points of contact for wheels in 2024, are you sure that is what they are referring to?  I was thinking "each wheel" previously only had one point of contact whereas now they have multiple to better derive friction and more accurate ground handling.  

Which makes it all the more ironic that people are talking about how much better it is in 24 when they were probably using planes that actually had the same ground handling characteristics as in 2020 without even realizing it...

The 777 has tilting bogies that touch down rear wheel first in 2020...   You can see them in this preview video:   We don't even know if the Beluga takes advantage of the new ground physics.

Without taking a look at the flight_model.cfg of these default aircraft we really don't know what the opt-in features implemented are. All we can go by is how the aircraft handles overall on the ground (and all these IRL pilots and simmers who've chimed can't all be imagining things hehe). For sure payware aircraft like the ini A300 where it's been stated explicitly that they take advantage of 2024 ground physics, it does feel different than 2020, as does the Fenix (to me at least, and the IRL pilots who've reviewed them). And yes GA birds like the 2024 C172 and a couple of others definitely exhibit better behaviour than in 2020.

By multiple points of contact I was initially talking about 2024 no longer modelling wheels as single points but as 3D objects with different characteristics like flex/grip/etc. Recently above I was responding to that particular question about bogies not being modelled as "one entity", because in 2020 some aircraft were doing exactly that. If some 3rd party aircraft were tilting properly in 2020 that's great but it was likely using custom dynamics.

2020 with SU15 did introduce a partial backport of 2024's ground handling revamp with some new parameters for flight_model.cfg which some aircraft devs did opt in to (i.e. Fenix, ini A300, etc).. but even those 2020 aircraft won't be as good as they are in 2024, note what Matt Nischan said recently on this forum: "... the biggest improvement is in model resolution. There's more ground and tire model resolution, so more samples to integrate into the physics solution to make important phases more accurate, like the feel of the tire contact patch decreasing slowly as the weight comes off the tires, leading to that natural and smooth changeover from nosewheel steering to rudder operation without the on/off switch from steering to weathervaning. I, for one, have found when the aircraft has the new ground contact model enabled that 2024 gives quite lovely results."

There is no irony here :), a lot of us including the various IRL pilots who've chimed in really do see a noticeable improvement in 2024 vs 2020 in some aircraft, when comparing those same aircraft in 2020 (be they GA or heavies).
 

Edited February 17, 20251 yr by lwt1971

18 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

There is no irony here :), a lot of us including the various IRL pilots who've chimed in really do see a noticeable improvement in 2024 vs 2020 in some aircraft, when comparing those same aircraft in 2020 (be they GA or heavies).

But if the plane isn't taking advantage of the new modelling and options would it really be any better if it still has a single point of contact?  That was my comment about irony, not the planes that are behaving as they should but the ones people are claiming are better but are actually no different than how they were implemented in 2020...   AKA Placebo. 

And again, don't misconstrue, I'm not even remotely insinuating it is all placebo AT ALL, I recognize the improvements and everything Matt said as well but it really wasn't until this thread for myself that I realized this was opt in and not all planes in 24 would necessarily even have this implemented.  Also why it would be nice to have a list so we could really compare.  I just want to reiterate I am not saying that the planes that have been modified are placebo at all or that the ground physics changes aren't better in 24 at all,  I don't want my words turned around but I am questioning if the plane is not updated is it really improved or the exact same as 2020?  In which case yes, a lot of the claims of improvements in planes that are still using the single contact patch model would actually be unfounded.  That was the irony comment.  

18 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

the biggest improvement is in model resolution. There's more ground and tire model resolution, so more samples to integrate into the physics solution to make important phases more accurate, like the feel of the tire contact patch decreasing slowly as the weight comes off the tires, leading to that natural and smooth changeover from nosewheel steering to rudder operation without the on/off switch from steering to weathervaning. I, for one, have found when the aircraft has the new ground contact model enabled that 2024 gives quite lovely results."

This is exactly what I was saying and nothing to do with tilting bogies...  So just because the Beluga had tilting bogies doesn't mean it had the new ground physics model, tilting bogies was achievable in 2020... I don't know if PMDG was using "custom dynamics" they are pretty tied to the SDK and Marketplace.  I would have to go look at other planes to see if those bogies tilt as well.  

Edited February 18, 20251 yr by psolk

12 minutes ago, psolk said:

And again, don't misconstrue, I'm not even remotely insinuating it is all placebo AT ALL, I recognize the improvements and everything Matt said as well but it really wasn't until this thread for myself that I realized this was opt in and not all planes in 24 would necessarily even have this implemented.  Also why it would be nice to have a list so we could really compare.  I just want to reiterate I am not saying that the planes that have been modified are placebo at all or that the ground physics changes aren't better in 24 at all,  I don't want my words turned around but I am questioning if the plane is not updated is it really improved or the exact same as 2020?  In which case yes, a lot of the claims of improvements in planes that are still using the single contact patch model would actually be unfounded.  That was the irony comment. 

Ok got it, and fair enough. Oh, thought it was always clear both the flight dynamics and ground dynamics improvements in 2024 would be opt-in.. for one thing they have to be as opposed to something forced and global right, since then all the various 3rd party aircraft that have hand-tweaked flight/ground models for 2020 would then be all wonky in 2024 once made compatible. So yes if the plane is not updated then it would be exactly as in 2020 in terms of handling I'd say. And if those aircraft are being claimed to be showing noticeable improvements in 2024 then yes those claims would be unfounded. That said it can also be the case that some aircraft devs could've partially opted-in so some aspects of ground handling are improved while others not.

For me personally, the airliners I can definitely feel a difference in both ground handling and the ground<->air transition in 2024 vs 2020 are the ini A300 (2024 version), Fenix (2024 version), and the default A330 (compared to 2020 heavies). The consensus among the major IRL pilot streamers and avsimmers appear to also call out these three aircraft, and also the 2024 default ini A320 and Asobo 737 Max (I haven't flown these two much yet).

As for smaller/GA aircraft, besides the C172 I also see improvements in the XCub. And of course with these going "off-runway" is a completely night and day difference vs 2020, given the new ground terrain modelling and collision modelling with the 3D wheels.

And have to add, water aircraft also show big difference in 2024 vs 2020. Don't believe there is any opt-in config for that in the FMs.
 

23 minutes ago, psolk said:

But if the plane isn't taking advantage of the new modelling and options would it really be any better if it still has a single point of contact?  That was my comment about irony, not the planes that are behaving as they should but the ones people are claiming are better but are actually no different than how they were implemented in 2020...   AKA Placebo. 

And again, don't misconstrue, I'm not even remotely insinuating it is all placebo AT ALL, I recognize the improvements and everything Matt said as well but it really wasn't until this thread for myself that I realized this was opt in and not all planes in 24 would necessarily even have this implemented.  Also why it would be nice to have a list so we could really compare.  I just want to reiterate I am not saying that the planes that have been modified are placebo at all or that the ground physics changes aren't better in 24 at all,  I don't want my words turned around but I am questioning if the plane is not updated is it really improved or the exact same as 2020?  In which case yes, a lot of the claims of improvements in planes that are still using the single contact patch model would actually be unfounded.  That was the irony comment.  

This is exactly what I was saying and nothing to do with tilting bogies...  So just because the Beluga had tilting bogies doesn't mean it had the new ground physics model, tilting bogies was achievable in 2020... I don't know if PMDG was using "custom dynamics" they are pretty tied to the SDK and Marketplace.  I would have to go look at other planes to see if those bogies tilt as well.  

Fair comments. 

So many people across multiple sims don't understand that the fidelity of an addon is actually more dependent on the talent of the developers than it is on the sim (broadly speaking, etc).

It's as if some folks believe there's Magic Pixie Dust that makes any given addon fly or handle or operate correctly just because it's in one sim, or in the latest version of another...

1 minute ago, lwt1971 said:

Ok got it, and fair enough. Oh, thought it was always clear both the flight dynamics and ground dynamics improvements in 2024 would be opt-in.. for one thing they have to be as opposed to something forced and global right, since then all the various 3rd party aircraft that have hand-tweaked flight/ground models for 2020 would then be all wonky in 2024 once made compatible. So yes if the plane is not updated then it would be exactly as in 2020 in terms of handling I'd say. And if those aircraft are being claimed to be showing noticeable improvements in 2024 then yes those claims would be unfounded. That said it can also be the case that some aircraft devs could've partially opted-in so some aspects of ground handling are improved while others not.

For me personally, the airliners I can definitely feel a difference in both ground handling and the ground<->air transition in 2024 vs 2020 are the ini A300 (2024 version), Fenix (2024 version), and the default A330 (compared to 2020 heavies). The consensus among the major IRL pilot streamers and avsimmers appear to also call out these three aircraft, and also the 2024 default ini A320 and Asobo 737 Max (I haven't flown these two much yet).

As for smaller/GA aircraft, besides the C172 I also see improvements in the XCub. And of course with these going "off-runway" is a completely night and day difference vs 2020, given the new ground terrain modelling and collision modelling with the 3D wheels.

And have to add, water aircraft also show big difference in 2024 vs 2020. Don't believe there is any opt-in config for that in the FMs.
 

Agree.

Another thing for folks to keep in mind is that the physics in the sim are frequently changed even when it's not disclosed.

3PD's like Sim Works Studios have repeatedly stated their struggles to keep their well-regarded add-ons flying right through the course of just v2020, with frequent changes necessary as SU's were released.

6 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Ok got it, and fair enough. Oh, thought it was always clear both the flight dynamics and ground dynamics improvements in 2024 would be opt-in.. for one thing they have to be as opposed to something forced and global right, since then all the various 3rd party aircraft that have hand-tweaked flight/ground models for 2020 would then be all wonky in 2024 once made compatible. So yes if the plane is not updated then it would be exactly as in 2020 in terms of handling I'd say. And if those aircraft are being claimed to be showing noticeable improvements in 2024 then yes those claims would be unfounded. That said it can also be the case that some aircraft devs could've partially opted-in so some aspects of ground handling are improved while others not.

For me personally, the airliners I can definitely feel a difference in both ground handling and the ground<->air transition in 2024 vs 2020 are the ini A300 (2024 version), Fenix (2024 version), and the default A330 (compared to 2020 heavies). The consensus among the major IRL pilot streamers and avsimmers appear to also call out these three aircraft, and also the 2024 default ini A320 and Asobo 737 Max (I haven't flown these two much yet).

As for smaller/GA aircraft, besides the C172 I also see improvements in the XCub. And of course with these going "off-runway" is a completely night and day difference vs 2020, given the new ground terrain modelling and collision modelling with the 3D wheels.

And have to add, water aircraft also show big difference in 2024 vs 2020. Don't believe there is any opt-in config for that in the FMs.
 

Fair play and good dialog!  

Oh man, water was/is atrocious (at least for me) in 2020 I gave up so great to hear water handling is improved as well!  

@UrgentSiesta completely agree as well.