41 minutes ago, Bjoern said:

As far as I remember, the criticism of ToLiss' textures in the A339 wasn't so much related to texture dimensions but to general detailing and PBR material balancing. And I'd hazard a quess that general resolution doesn't really matter to users as long as the overall detailing and art style is realistic.

For me, it still over the top of criticizing an aircraft over it aesthetics with so much to offer right out the gate, to not buy it just because the do like the way it looks to them, making a molehill into a mountain. But hey, they got the Aerosoft A330 version that look great but didn't do so well in the systems and flying department.

Edited February 15, 20251 yr by BobFS88

2 hours ago, Bjoern said:

Dan takes market research for and commercial performance of X-Plane add-ons very seriously and I wish he did not, as to me, ever only looking at the numbers means that the passion for the entire endeavor got pushed to the back seat.

I think it is wise. They have to look at the numbers; it is a business for them. A good business leader does that.
Also, freeware developers do it because they are passionate about the hobby, while payware developers do it to make money first, and everything else comes afterward.

1 hour ago, BobFS88 said:

For me, it still over the top of criticizing an aircraft over it aesthetics with so much to offer right out the gate, to not buy it just because the do like the way it looks to them

It is entirely fair to criticize an aircraft over its aesthetics and decide not to buy it based on that if we choose. Consumers do this all the time in our everyday lives.  A jacket may perform its function of keeping you warm, but you could decide not to buy it because it is not aesthetically pleasing to your eyes. Aesthetics rarely get substantial improvement after the initial release. If there is a large improvement, it is usually a V2 for some more $$$. Also, we could always buy it later if it improves.

 

10 hours ago, Franz007 said:

From the statistics I've seen, both MSFS 2020 and 2024 have been dropping pretty significantly. For ex. on Steam, MSFS 2024 droped by 10% in the last 30 days (and way more before, since its release in nov 2024). Same when watching the Twitch-statistics, although it doesn't necessarely reflect the number of users (more the general interest). I am not aware of any other statistics with numbers. Navigraph canceled it's 2024-survey. My guess is that they were scared to show bad numbers. For both 2020 and 2024, there was a huge amount of users in the first 1-2 weeks but those numbers droped very abruptly after the starting-hype. 80% or more users seems to have already abandoned it. XP12 still doesn't have close the amount of users of MSFS but the number of users has been constantly increasing since release, although at a very slow peace. So there seems to be two completely different user-behaviours and XP being way more consistent. This is what he was refering to in my opinion.

Steam simply isn't representative of the actual market, and even comparisons of similar titles within Steam need to be taken with quite a bit of salt.

MS/Asobo reported setting new records for user numbers just the other day in their regular stream. 

No doubt they're highlighting successes, but still, if numbers are higher than ever, then...

Do we think MS/Asobo are outright lying, and that MSFS is doing the opposite of what they're saying...?

///

In re Navigraph, we know they postponed the survey. But I haven't seen any new that it's been cancelled - do you have a source...?

I do believe Navigraph will be negatively affected by the new planning/charts features in v2024, FWIW.

///

And just like I believe MS/Asobo when they say they're doing well, I believe Laminar Research when they report their status.

///

Dan Klaue's statements just don't align with the generally accepted status of flight sim.

1 hour ago, brinx said:

It is entirely fair to criticize an aircraft over its aesthetics and decide not to buy it based on that if we choose.

Not if it's done for nefarious reason which is often the case whenever a XP addon gets mention in certain publication where some feel need show nothing but contempt to make those type comments (great aircraft wrong sim) nearly routinely simply because the addon appeared and it's not for their sim. We see this happen too many times to think that this is some innocent observers who would "do this all the time in our everyday lives." Since they could not find anything wrong with the aircraft, that is their go to complaint "the texture sucks" "the cockpit is not right etc etc, with nothing of substance as to why. When Tolisis made some improvement, there were no comments from them, but I didn't expect any from them because they don't care, it simply wasn't for their sim and that all that matters to them.  

 

5 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

For me, it still over the top of criticizing an aircraft over it aesthetics with so much to offer right out the gate, to not buy it just because the do like the way it looks to them, making a molehill into a mountain. But hey, they got the Aerosoft A330 version that look great but didn't do so well in the systems and flying department.

Not sure how the initial release of the A330 stacked up against the A32x in terms of texture quality, but if a newly released product is at an inferior (visual) standard to an existing one, while being released at full price, some frustration is understandable. Yes, different development paths and all, but if you update product A while you work on product B, the latter should be brought up to spec, even if it would delay a release. But it's moot to ponder about the "why""s and "how"s as ToLiss, true to their reputation for excellent support, quickly supplied improved textures anyway.

 

2 hours ago, brinx said:

I think it is wise. They have to look at the numbers; it is a business for them. A good business leader does that.
Also, freeware developers do it because they are passionate about the hobby, while payware developers do it to make money first, and everything else comes afterward.

The distinction is not that clear cut. Many payware developers work in their spare time or have their main income from other sources and simply sell their work for an extra income, so are much less business driven than those who decided to base their entire income on it. And it shows if one can read between the lines (choice of subject, release and update frequency and pricing).

Edited February 15, 20251 yr by Bjoern

23 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Steam simply isn't representative of the actual market, and even comparisons of similar titles within Steam need to be taken with quite a bit of salt.

We have tried to tell that to the guys on the other side when they use those number as an leading indicate when XP12 rolled out. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, remember to remind them of that the next time they want to use those steam numbers. 

 

30 minutes ago, BobFS88 said:

We have tried to tell that to the guys on the other side when they use those number as an leading indicate when XP12 rolled out. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, remember to remind them of that the next time they want to use those steam numbers. 

 

I do - constantly. 😁

I use both sims and like both equally although for distinct reasons which are related to the strong points of each platform.

I honestly couldn't care less about how many users are in Xp12 or in FS 2020 or in FS 2024, provided I can continue to enjoy development updates, new products which will naturally come at different rates and price tags.

The only aspect that can make me worry is when sales and base development in any of the simulators I use is in risk. I don't want to see anything like MS FLIGHT happening to FS 2024, nor do I want to find that 3pds in X-Plane have to give up on continuing to support the platform because sales have reached such low levels that it's no longer feasible.

I never purchased huge amounts of addons for any of the flightsims. I am very selective. The addons I have are, at least as I write this, with their developers still active and well alive & kicking. That's what I want to see !!!

Edited February 15, 20251 yr by jcomm

13 minutes ago, jcomm said:

I use both sims and like both equally although for distinct reasons which are related to the strong points of each platform.

I honestly couldn't care less about how many users are in Xp12 or in FS 2020 or in FS 2024, provided I can continue to enjoy development updates, new products which will naturally come at different rates and price tags.

The only aspect that can make me worry is when sales and base development in any of the simulators I use is in risk. I don't want to see anything like MS FLIGHT happening to FS 2024, nor do I want to find that 3pds in X-Plane have to give up on continuing to support the platform because sales have reached such low levels that it's no longer feasible.

I never purchased huge amounts of addons for any of the flightsims. I am very selective. The addons I have are, at least as I write this, with their developers still active and well alive & kicking. That's what I want to see !!!

Agree!

But I'll tell you what's "worse": having Prepar3D still installed, still usable, still supported, still (apparently) in development, and not more than literally two or three developers supporting their add-ons there any longer.

Even the well established, well regarded devs like PMDG, Blackbird nee milViz, etc al. Are not keeping their add-ons up to date (you can't even BUY PMDG for P3D any longer. At least MilViz made their add-ons free downloads).

It's so bad that I can't even buy the latest version of P3D (v6), to support LM (not that they really need MY support 😉), because only two aircraft add-ons I own are supported there!

Edited February 15, 20251 yr by UrgentSiesta

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Steam simply isn't representative of the actual market, and even comparisons of similar titles within Steam need to be taken with quite a bit of salt.

Yes that is true. At the same time it shows a tendency. Why would 25’000 usersper day use it on Steam the first week and now this number is down to about 4’000 a day and keeps droping?

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Do we think MS/Asobo are outright lying, and that MSFS is doing the opposite of what they're saying...?

I don’t think that they are lying. But the number of people using it on a regular basis vs. the huge number of users trying it simply out (Xbox game-abo for 1$] and then stopped using it seems to be also very high. I think Asobo counts everyone who has started it at least one time.

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

In re Navigraph, we know they postponed the survey. But I haven't seen any new that it's been cancelled - do you have a source...?

They just stated that they postponed it because it would not reflect the situation good enough (after 2024 had a disastrous start). So clearly related to not wanting to launch a survey reflecting that…although this is a bit weird in my opinion.

Talking about navigraph, 2023-survey showed a number of users for MSFS around 4x higher than XP 11+12 together. And this is the best survey we have for « hardcore simmers », the ones who will most likely purchase addons.

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Dan Klaue's statements just don't align with the generally accepted status of flight sim.

His statements align very well with all statistics that are known based on regular users. The regular users are the ones he focus on I would guess.
 

18 minutes ago, jcomm said:

I honestly couldn't care less about how many users are in Xp12 or in FS 2020 or in FS 2024, provided I can continue to enjoy development updates

19 minutes ago, jcomm said:

nor do I want to find that 3pds in X-Plane have to give up on continuing to support the platform because sales have reached such low levels that it's no longer feasible.

This second point is exactly the reason why the number of users are important. So if you don’t care you should also jot care about devs abandonning a sim 😉

I think X-Plane has an advantage and a disadvantage.

The advantage is that its development and recurring expenses are probably order of magnitudes lower than the competition. This, coupled with the fact that X-Plane also gets income from the professional market, means that it needs significantly less users to stay financially viable.

The disadvantage is that it needs a certain minimum amount of users to keep the add-on market alive, so X-Plane sales and its add-on market sales depend on each other someway.

5 hours ago, brinx said:

I think it is wise. They have to look at the numbers; it is a business for them. A good business leader does that.

Disagree. Many people thought I was crazy to do a TBM. A single engine turbo prop GA was something I wanted to for years. I was looking at a meridian or Malibu. When I saw the TBM, I jumped on board within 30 seconds. It outsold my Saab, which had been out for 5 years, within the first year. I never looked at the business side of it. I just really wanted to make a single engine turbo GA. 

8 hours ago, Bjoern said:

Dan takes market research for and commercial performance of X-Plane add-ons very seriously and I wish he did not, as to me, ever only looking at the numbers means that the passion for the entire endeavor got pushed to the back seat.

That’s where he differs from many others. Devs like myself just want to make add ons with passion. The business will take care of itself. 

9 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Agree!

But I'll tell you what's "worse": having Prepar3D still installed, still usable, still supported, still (apparently) in development, and not more than literally two or three developers supporting their add-ons there any longer.

Even the well established, well regarded devs like PMDG, Blackbird nee milViz, etc al. Are not keeping their add-ons up to date (you can't even BUY PMDG for P3D any longer. At least MilViz made their add-ons free downloads).

It's so bad that I can't even buy the latest version of P3D (v6), to support LM (not that they really need MY support 😉), because only two aircraft add-ons I own are supported there!

I feel your pain 😞

I purchased P3D a few times along it's cycle, and it became, together with DCS World, and later IL-2, my escape from the disilusion with MS FLIGHT... and somehow X-Plane too, my main general purpose sim.

I have P3dv6, but presently it's not even installed, and I honestly think it was one of my most failed purchases ever :-/