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Guest player1

Poor Aces? Poor Hobby? Poor Phil? Poor me?

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It's never really been a case of what is said as long as it is factual...What is the issue though is how it is said!There's never an excuse for rudeness. Period.Stating one's position once is sufficient. Harping on the same point more than once in the same thread is rude and boorish.

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That's pretty much how I feel, you just wrote it better than I could write it ;)

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>It's never really been a case of what is said as long>as it is factual...>>What is the issue though is how it is said!>>There's never an excuse for rudeness. Period.>>Stating one's position once is sufficient. Harping on the same>point more than once in the same thread is rude and boorish.I agree with you and it would be nice if it worked that way.But really, I think you would agree that it is likely that MS would NOT have fixed many of the past problems with FS if everyone just cried boo once.As far as "factual" well...Yeah, at the top level you have to have all the facts sorted. Here at customer level its fact and perseption of fact. Sometimes what you think is fiction because you haven't experianced something or it doesn't bother you Doesn't make it unfactual.Even when it is not factual you still have to wear a smile thru it all, even when they are rude. If you are a rep you expect that. Sometimes you break, but it for sure isn't good business to just close the door.

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I think something is being missed though.I have been having horrible troubles with Vista. I will be complaining to Microsoft.I don't however expect to take it out on the tech support person who has been working with me-or an internet site where enthusiasts of Vista meet to enjoy themselves..or even those individuals who are enjoying it.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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Ditto,In fact WE are the CUSTOMER and they are the vendors, no?

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or an internet site where>enthusiasts of Vista meet to enjoy themselves..or even those>individuals who are enjoying it.>>Well I think that people will complain here, or other FS forums because they know the developers will possibly see it. Also, if other users feel the same way they will join in (yeah sometimes it gets pretty ugly), and strength in numbers ;)I don't get why there can't be criticsm, I agree some take it way too far, and some just troll to get a rise outa people. There are a wide range of consumers on these forums, and we react different ways to news, discussions etc. You're gonna have the ones that get offended when someone talks down about FSX, and you're gonna have the ones that don't give a poop. There are bugs with FSX, it's a fact. Then again there are also a lot of good things to FSX. I'd venture to guess the majority of FSX bashers just had a bad experience with it at first, or they don't have the fastest hardware in the galaxy hehe. But so what if they bash it? If developers representing ANY software just want praise, they better not visit forums LOL! So Amen to the OP!

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Perhaps so, but this is AVSIM, which we pay for and run by ourselves. It's not an official Microsoft website. It's not an official site for any vendor, at least as far as I am aware. The last time I looked, it was usual policy that if you had a problem with a product, you got into contact to the vendor through their own official channels. Coming to AVSIM to complain about flight sim is like coming over to my place and then using my phone to call all of your people, even the long-distance ones who live on another continent. AVSIM was created to be a celebration of flight sim. Complaining about the shortcomings of the sim is a valid topic, provided that it is done logically and respectfully. It's just people have been complaining so often and so regularly, that we have come to expect that AVSIM is providing a venting forum as a public service. AVSIM is not a public venting service. It's not a direct hotline for talking with ACES, either. AVSIM does have clear policies for its guests, and if the guests choose to abuse their priveledges here, they can expect to be shown to the door. Nothing malicious in it, just common-sense rules for conduct, like at your office or in a classroom. At least AVSIM lets you chew gum.Phil Taylor does have a job in the Outside World he has to tend to. There's Train Simulator that's due to be released that seems to be taking up a lot of flight sim resources at ACES right now. What Phil wants to do is is own business. His cheques are signed by Microsoft, so he has to be beholden to them. Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

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>Sometimes you break, but it for sure isn't good business to>just close the door. If Phil had been posting here and elsewhere in his "official capacity" - that is had it been part of his job description - there might be some validity to the "grin and bear it" paradigm......however, Phil was spending his off-duty time to provide value-added information into the public domain. I don't blame him one bit if he has now chosen to take off the "shoot the messenger target" some ill-mannered folks seemed to think he was wearing.Over a year ago there were as many as SIX folks from ACES participating in public forums......now the very last one has withdrawn from active participation!Are we as a community richer or poorer now?I've read a lot of drek about some of us "worshiping" Phil and the other ACES devs. That's pure balderdash! The reality is that some of us learned early in life not to bite the hand that feeds us, and deliberately chose to treat Phil et alia with a higher standard of courtesy, particularly where there was absolutely no reason other than a generous and genuine desire to be helpful.

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>Phil Taylor does have a job in the Outside World he has to>tend to. There's Train Simulator that's due to be released>that seems to be taking up a lot of flight sim resources at>ACES right now. What Phil wants to do is is own business. >His cheques are signed by Microsoft, so he has to be beholden>to them. This is what many fell is the crux of the problem. Microsoft continues to support our Windows product by constant updates and the commitment to fix Windows problems for years to come. With FSX, the message is were done, we need to focus on your next $50.

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Yet another logically accurate assesment of the situation. These guys should have been treated like VIP's, instead they were treated like POS. I've seen attempts by some to defend Aces or chastise those who are part of the offending crowd only to be bombarded with free speech and open forum rhetoric. Well, you reap what you sow and now that unprecendented glimpse into the minds of the Aces team is now restricted to a one way flow of information.The Aces team members seemed like a decent group of flightsim enthusiasts and the less mature members of this and other forums decided to use that wide eyed enthusiasm and turn it against them. What a shame.

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I've always wrote of the need for respect both to and from Phil.One writer in the "Phil must stay" tread compared Phil to a "God". This idol worship is counter productive. It should be just as unacceptable as abusive behavior.Phil is too smart to buy into any of that silliness, I suspect, yet it unbalances the relationship to no ones advantage.That thread simplifies discourse to "yer with us or yer agin us"...which is a phallacious place to take this discussion. The biggest problem is the personalization of the problems, its not about Phil, its about respect.I can respectfully disagree with Phil and his interpretaion of various threads he's initiated. He needs to respectfully understand my refusal to "congratulate" him over getting the magic screenie removed. He also needs to have a big enough perspective to recognize pending trouble with the Tom's Hardware thread before he presses "post". I saw it immediately...my very first reaction to the cute "holy fps" title, was...oops, more trouble brewing. Why couldn't Phil predict a negative reaction himself, and not write it? I didn't provide the negative, others did, but I predicted it.This lack of respect is both ways NOW. That's not to say it was always that way...its true that Phil took too much personal attacks earlier. But at this point, the pendulum has swung the other way and its equally wrong. Should two wrongs exist, so that the average is appropriate? Sadly, this rarely results in a positive and sustainable result. Its exactly this mistake being furthered by the "Phil must stay thread"....folks are attempting to present Phil with enough positive to outweigh the negative....sadly, its the pendulus extremes that are actually showing up. And neither extreme carries a sustainable voice. An accurate reading of that thread would permit Phil to abuse the customers, and the customers are obligated to hug Phil anyway. Declaring Phil a God is wacky, having Phil or anyone from Aces participate here is as valuable as the amount of respect that is possible to maintain going both ways. If either side becomes abusive, the value is lost. Being told to "look in the mirror", abuses me. The value is lost. Telling Phil he is responsible for all the wrongs of FSX abuses Phil and the value is lost. Phil took the job to represent a transitional version of FS. Transitional versions have historically had issues...this is no exception. I suspect we'll enjoy the next version with fewer issues, just as fs2002 seemed to "fix" fs2000. In that vein, the customers voice is not wrong to be upset. Rude IS wrong. Saying the product is flawed in this forum is appropriate. Saying it repeatedly is logical if the Official response does not take responsiblity for the unflinished nature of a transitional product. I believe that the rude people would have been less abusive if Microsoft had empathized with them, and admitted that so much has changed here, that folks should not expect the product to function as well as previous versions, there may be more hardware incompatibility than previous versions, and that refunds are available if anyone feels the product did not live up to expectations. Sadly, all responses came from a relatvely elitist position, that of folks that understand the workings of computers deeply, or from beta testers (I am guilty of this) that had explored the product deeply and had developed workarounds or just gotten accustomed to the performance expectations, and/or had developed a positive sense for the product because we observed how it evolved from beta 1 to beta 3. Non of us showed a valid empathy or ability to "walk in the other guys shoes" for the customer that had NO reason to expect anything less than a product that was fun for them, operating on expesive computer hardware they knew they needed, and was far above the minimum requirements listed. All these folks knew was that the appearance of the sim that ran to their satisfaction was not as pretty as fs9, and therefore they felt ripped off for spending $70.That's really fair. To be told that they don't really have a problem, because other people don't, or that their hardware is the problem, or that anything else is the problem is a form of not taking responsibility. I know its all true, BUT....the customer had a fair beef, and no one but the manufacutere is responsible in that situation, regardless of how victimized the manufacturer is. That's between the manufacturer and his/her alliance partners, its not the customer's duty to help the manufacturer out with contributions or by putting up with disappointing purchases.So....the disgruntled repeated their beef. And repeated...and repeated...and we've demonized them now.whew....fingers are tired, sorry to go on so long.With respect to all, including the disgruntled customers.Bob

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My post below addresses my ideas of why the hands were bitten. Not everyone viewed the hands as "feeding them". Folks that felt ripped off by fsx, but were denied voice, got angry. It could have been diffused except there was hero-worship elements inherent in the community that enjoyed the direct ms contact which was refreshing. Sorry Bill, we disagree to the "heroworship as balderdash" concept. Look at the "phil must stay" thread if you doubt heroworship...someone actually called Phil a "God".Bob

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Agreed.You also have more class than lot of folks.On the other hand, that MS have been getting slammed in the forums and in the press for Vista is why many can still choose XP, that and acoording to last weeks press that there will be another "new" OS from MS in perhaps as little as 12 more months. We can also be sure many of this has hurt some feelings in the OS department, be it dev or support. But in the end MS have been good sports and will hopefully deliver, its there business.

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You've taken one posters assesment and applied it to all who enjoyed Aces communications. It's not about hero worship for most I assume but just a general acknowledgment of respect for those who are directly involved in the creation of FS.Considering the amount of consternation concerning this new development I would assume irregardless of the problems with FSX and all the discussion and argument that many are feeling a pinch of loss.And concerning Phil being abusive, well, it didn't start out that way. I believe he developed an attitude over time, from hangmen's nooses to being called a second rate programmer and constant degradation of the company he works for. I don't know, but that would put me on the defensive side right quick.

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>But in the end MS have been good sports and will hopefully>deliver, its there business.Hopefully they can learn from their mistakes and customer outcry and officially support the products they sell us until well after the time the product is pulled from the shelves.

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Another thought....Why are people feeling so "lucky" or "fed" by MS participating with customers in forums? Isn't this customer communcation become the norm? It seems like many software and hardware products have forums in which you can enjoy exchange with customer service people from the manufacturer. I propose this is an over-reaction to the previous MS policy of refusing to speak to the customer.Lets face it...in the past we developers were rendered "hackers" due to the official policy of brick-walling communication. My sense of the current philosophy is to develop synergy with the developers that are recogized as strong content contributers. Its very likely that MS hopes to "control" vendors to produced less "hacked" content so that MS can maintain technical control better.Thus, theres an element of this communication being tied to a business objective for MS. Btw, that's fine with me. I only raise it because people are acting like Phil has been "feeding" us, like giving us "gifts". I seriously doubt that the hand is "feeding" us, beyond helping the developers enhance the basic Flight Simulator brand awareness and reach. Essentially, if the communcation with public had proceeded according to the hopes within Microsoft, there would have been a synergy that would have benefited Microsoft future sales, content control that would have reduced costs enabling a better margin, and positives within the community as well.So, lets balance the perspective of who's winning and losing. MS has more to lose than the readers of Avsim for the failure of this effort. I just don't think Microsoft has a lot of experience in dealing directly with people.Best,Bob

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In my long post below I addressed the timing of negativity. In addition, I've added my sense of the business element from an MS perspective. This isn't all about hugs. Its also about money...like it or not.Have you stopped to consider why you appreciate the communication with MS so much? Is it because this communication was denied to you for so long? Should it have been ever denied? Is receiving communication from a manufacturer really so much a gift, or is it what should happen, and MS is finally doing what they should have done all along?B

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I agree with almost all of what you said except....Disgruntled customers should be going thru the appropriate avenues to deal with their disatisfaction including the ultimate slap in the face-a refund. I know I am with my current Vista problem-and I am very angry about it. Look at the Avsim logo above-"Where Flight Simulation Enthusiasts Gather from around the World".It does not say "where disgruntled customers go to vent,and beat up on off Duty MS employees/flight sim enthusiasts who are also trying to gather (or 3rd party add on manufacturers)".I don't really see this about "yer with us" or "against us" but a continual disregard of what avsim and this forum is set up for. As for the Phil must stay thread, you are seeing a reaction from those who do truly come here to gather, are flight sim enthusiasts, and are upset that the MS flight sim enthusiasts are being shown the door-not by avsim, but a set group of individuals that take great pleasure in making these individuals unhappy to be a part of this community.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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Geoff, this concept of Phil being "off duty" is confusing. I assume he's on salary, I know anytime I sign a letter with my company name, or speak to a customer no matter what day of the week or time of day, I'm NOT "off duty". If Phil want's to participate here NOT representing ACES, well, I can't imagine how that could be arranged. Perhpas he could chat under an alias.So...no, he's speaking for MS every time ACES appears in his signiture.As far as the role of AVSIM...no one disputes Avsim's rights to be whatever they choose. Of course the past is precedant, and so having problems resolved has been appropriate up til now. The trouble is these people who thought they were pointing out problems got dissed, by folks refusing to listen.The only solution was to empathize with unhappy customers, even to the point of admitting (possibly unethical) marketing techniques were used. This may have been impossible for MS, which sets us all up for conflict. Problems that did exist were defined as "not problems". Marketing expectations that were unmet were met by frustration rather than apology.The only way I could see Avsim resolving this differently would have been to announce that problem solving is no longer appropriate, only celebratory discussions were now permitted.Hard to imagine, but you guys set the rules.Best,Bob

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As far as PHil being "shown the door"...I think whats really happening is that the angry folks have given up on Phil, if after this long, their beefs are still not being validated. Folks that don't dismiss the value of Phil are those who enjoy the product and the communication. To say that person one should feel like person two is the same ol thing....that still invalidates person's one's problem.<>Could be that folks don't know about what the appropriate avenues are. The other factor here is some folks have fallen in love with fs so much that it takes a huge amount of emotion to reach the point of asking for a refund, more than with an operating system...which is pretty invisible most of the time.B

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Well I don't see off duty confusing at all. If a Doctor is invited to my house to a party I would consider it innapropriate to ask for medical advice at that time-but I do know some don't see it this way.Problem solving really doesn't equate to making members of this community feeling unwelcome. It isn't just Phil we are speaking of-until recently we had quite a few of the Aces team participating here. I see lots of problem solving done every day in a polite and well appreciated fashion. There are many examples on the present page. I believe that is what makes avsim what it is. If the president of Microsoft calls me personally on my present Vista problem-I will be very polite with him out of respect for his position even though I am very disgruntled. I don't think members of the Aces team or fellow simmers here deserve any less-disgruntled or not.In the Dreamfleet dakota thread below there are questions asking for help-responses offering help, and when the help did not resolve their problem a stating that they will be getting a refund and moving on. A prime example of how things should work around here. I don't think any of the posters feel insulted, I see no ranting,and no one feels a need to walk away from here.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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It seems that someone can't be "disgruntled" and still be a flight sim enthusiast? I for one agree with the original poster.What seems to be described is more of an MS enthusiast than a FS enthusiast. Just because someone has a strong opinion about a perceived limitation or fault does not mean they are not enthusiastic, in my opinion they may be even more so than one that accepts things as they are.I will say that no personal attack is ever warranted, but, there are extreme reactions at both ends of this opinion scale.Joe Lorenc

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The difference is the Doctor friend came to your house because he wanted some non-professional freindship. What if that friend came to discuss doctoring? Would you deny that he was acting in the stead of a doctor? What if he offered to look at your sore throat between the main course and dessert? Imagine golfing...you may enjoy that sport with your friends. You may also have had the chance to golf with a prospective customer, its all of a sudden shifted from off hours hobby activity to WORK. If you don't recognize the work quality of that experience, you probably won't get the sale.I still believe that ACES came here as a result of a business decision to embrace the developers, enhance brand awareness, and reduce costs incurred when developers failed to design in line with the base program, not because they knew they might get to have a chat with Bob Bernstein! This was a business decision, so your party analogy fails. Otherwise, you'd have to explain why so many ACES folks got friendly "all of a sudden". Did you follow the work that was done years ago when we first learned to add photoscenery to fs200(2?). We were guided by a "deep throat"..an ACES member that had to remain masked. At that time the business choice was different.BTW, no rancor has ever appeared (so far as I know) between ACES and posters on Arno's site. Why? Becuase the clientel are developers, the rancor is with the users. Its not about ACES vs the Public, its about ACES knowing how to deal with common folks who are unhappy. You may note that ACES still respond on that site, even thou the situation is unpleasant for them here. They just need to re-evaluate the business objectives in light of what's worked and what hasn't and make a logical adjustment. Bob

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