3 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

As a fan of both XP and MSFS and P3D, I'd love to carry on the X-Plane vs MSFS debate, but that's not what this post is about.

What I'll say is that aero/flight models - in particular - are what interest me the most, and form the foundation of a satisfying sim experience for me.

So I'll ask that instead of assuming I don't understand, or that haven't even looked into the various methods of producing good flight models, you accept that I have, in fact, done so.

///

In contrast, based on what you've shared so far, MY perspective is that you haven't investigated or absorbed MSFS' continually evolving aero modeling. Your statements lead me to believe that you stopped learning about MSFS' FM about 3-4 years ago.

ESPECIALLY since you keep describing P3D and MSFS as though they use the same aero / flight models, which is objectively untrue. Simple as that.

All you'd have to do to prove it to yourself is fly a helicopter in P3D, then jump in one in MSFS v2020, and THEN jump in one in v2024.

Worlds of difference, to vastly over simplify.

You say that XP's aero model is "fully based on aerodynamics", implying that MSFS doesn't have "aerodynamics" available.

Without getting into shades of gray in re 3rd Party Dev support, what do you think CFD, NPS, and SBS are all about, if not literally "aerodynamics" conceptually similar to X-Plane BET and other physics...?

I mean, MSFS even included airflow and atmospheric visualization tools so we mere mortals can see things in a manner similar to the BET visualizations in XP!

I honestly believe you've approached your position with literal prejudice, and have a strong case of confirmation bias in favor of XP. Which, again, isn't OP's purpose.

I'll remind you that we're supposed to be sticking to P3D vs MSFS, because to bring other sims under consideration unnecessarily muddies the waters re OP's position that P3D is a "professional simulator" and MSFS is a "game".

From an aero / flight model perspective, MSFS v2020, and v2024 even moreso, stand head and shoulders above P3D. Period, end of story.

As an Appendix, I'll once again readily agree that XP has fantastic aerodynamics & physics, and some of the Hi Fi add-ons there are my favorites over all other similar in other sims.

Since to go further is OT, I'll stop there.

To be clear, I was never trying to compare MSFS 2024 to the other sims because I really don't know a lot about it yet, I am not trying to hide that fact.

When I was referring to "MSFS" I was referring to specifically to 2020.  MSFS 2020 does have some aerodynamics involved but it also uses specific states or parameters to model or simulate different aspects of the flight models.  That is why MSFS 2020 aircraft (as well as P3D aircraft) tend to lack depth, personality or MSFS 2020 aircraft feel similar to each other.  In X-Plane, that is usually not the case.

X-Plane uses Blade Element Theory for it's flight modeling which is fully based on aerodynamics.  It is still possible to make good feeling flight models in MSFS 2020 but it seems that aircraft developers need to "cheat" or use workarounds to get around the limitations of the flight modelling and SDK.

It is also possible to make bad flight models for aircraft in X-Plane too, if the aircraft developer doesn't fully understand how to do so and as I said, X-Plane has it's limitations too.  There is no perfect single flight simulator out there, they all have their flaws.

Edited May 19, 20251 yr by Zylx

Regarding flight sim aerodynamics, if P3D isn't quite up to snuff and other sims model aircraft behavior better, then why does the military use P3D to train its pilots?

Just curious.

Dave

30 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Regarding flight sim aerodynamics, if P3D isn't quite up to snuff and other sims model aircraft behavior better, then why does the military use P3D to train its pilots?

Just curious.

Dave

I didn't mean that.  I do not know exactly why the military still uses it.  In many cases, I think P3D is still good enough for a lot of things.  I do not know if the military uses default aircraft in P3D for training their pilots or not but the default military jets that come with P3D actually have good enough flight modelling imo (they were designed by one of the top military aircraft designers in the world, LM after all).

It is also entirely possible that they use their own unique models or flight models that are specifically designed for training their pilots.  There are ways to make good flight models in P3D and in MSFS 2020 as well but I think the average 3rd party P3D aircraft that is out there for the average consumer likely wouldn't be good enough.

For X-Plane, one of Laminar's top focuses is designing a simulator with flight modelling that is as accurate as humanly possible.  For P3D, the way the flight models work is the same as it worked in FSX so it has limitations, but as I said earlier, it is possible to get around those limitations.

Edited May 20, 20251 yr by Zylx

I want to add that the noticeable differences in the way flight models feel between the different simulators is subtle, and not very noticeable for a lot of users, or they don't care which is fine.  It is only very picky people like me that even notice or care about such things 🙂

Edited May 20, 20251 yr by Zylx

6 hours ago, dave2013 said:

Regarding flight sim aerodynamics, if P3D isn't quite up to snuff and other sims model aircraft behavior better, then why does the military use P3D to train its pilots?

Just curious.

Dave

Because it contains the features that they need to orchestrate their trainings ? (scenario creation and controlling tools)

Also, on a side note, keep in mind that:

- they use the professional plus version, which is quite a bit different from the basic P3D version (weapon and war theatre tools included)...

- nobody knows what kind of training they actually do (could be simple procedure trainings, or just instruments trainings, not something you need a good flight model for)

- nobody know if they use the native flight model or an external one

Actually nobody here really knows how their simulator tools are setup or what they use it for.

11 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

OP's position that P3D is a "professional simulator" and MSFS is a "game".

"an arcade game", to be more precise, even though the OP obviously ignores what an "arcade" game actually is. It's a fancy word that many ignorants like to use, these days. 🙂

The game/simulation lines are blurred.

You can use a professional military simulator as an arcade game. One of my good friends was a simulator tech in the Air Force on the F4 Phantom full cockpit simulator. He said any time the simulator wasn't being used for testing pilots, he was in it flying as much as he could. He claimed over 1000 hours simulator time.

One thing he liked to do is fly straight up on afterburner until he ran out of fuel, then try to glide to nearby airfields. Yeah, I would have done the same. 😄

Even some of the earliest versions of flight sims, often little more than "arcade games," were still useful for learning procedures and instrument navigation. The flight model didn't even matter. I even had an early flight instructor, who believed personal computer flight sims were absolutely useless for any real world application, concede this.

It's not that one sim is a game and another a simulator. It's whether either can be adapted to real world training. MSFS is certainly better for practicing "contact flying" with reference to real world ground objects. The actual flight model matters less.

I was recently re-reading a book where an early pilot was tasked with using the very early Link trainers to develop cockpit procedures. The pilots didn't like it because "it didn't fly like a real plane." It didn't have to, they weren't practicing flying, they were developing procedures.

"North Star Over My Shoulder" by Robert Buck.  Recommended.

Hook

Edited May 20, 20251 yr by LHookins

1 hour ago, Daube said:

Also, on a side note, keep in mind that:

- they use the professional plus version, which is quite a bit different from the basic P3D version (weapon and war theatre tools included)...

This is a good point I neglected to mention earlier.  That particular version of P3D also offers access to advanced flight modelling features that are only available to that version.

On 5/17/2025 at 5:58 PM, spilok said:

.  We should feel SORRY for them because they don't have enough disc space to enjoy at least 2 vastly different simulators.

Or in my case. Not enough money to buy another simulator.