Prices of JET A1 in India compared to Gatwick, London.....    (roughly, but this info may not be accurate)

  ---  Do you think Tankering does not exist ??? --- 

(Some posts in this thread seem to say that it doesn't exist)

 

The price of  Jet A1 fuel in London is double the price of India....

 

 

 

 

An article was seen re-tankering........

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, aerostar said:

  ---  Do you think Tankering does not exist ??? --- 

(Some posts in this thread seem to say that it doesn't exist)

 

I presume you were referring to my posts there as I seem to be the only person in this thread disputing your claim the aircraft was tankering with 125,000 litres of fuel on board ?

What I’m saying is that particular flight did not dispatch with 242 POB and 125,000 litres of fuel on board, it would not have got airborne off that runway in those conditions,Period.

I did not suggest the practice of tankering doesn’t exist.

Thank you for putting together the comprehensive set of attachments, if indeed that was for my benefit, however I’m more than familiar with the concept of tankering fuel without needing to refer to an AI search.

If you take a look at my signature below you may note I’m a  senior Airline Captain rated on the Boeing 787 & 747-400 and have indeed tankered fuel myself on many occasions.
I also have current first hand experience of operating 787s between India annd Europe and the flight planning and performance issues which operating in that climate involves .

I am of course not infallible so yes, please do feel free to keep challenging anything I say and I’ll do my best to explain to you why I’m saying it, we’re all here at avsim to learn , I often have questions about software settings. However just please be aware my working knowledge on this particular subject has not been gained solely by using the default MSFS 787 and simbrief 

 

11 hours ago, G-RFRY said:

They now have both black boxes.

Good, because from what I've seen, the forward one has a dedicated battery power supply that's supposed to be good for 10 min (if electrical issues are in play here).

 

But both "black boxes" essentially are monitoring the central data bus for both system data and digitized voice, so the data bus must be transmitting to get data.

10 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

My bet is that the aircraft suffered a massive electrical failure that resulted in both engines shutting down. It seems that the main gear is tilted in a position which suggests that the gear retraction sequence had commenced, but was stopped for some reason. Total electrical failure would presumably be one reason for that.

I just feel that the multiple electrical problems in the cabin that were highlighted on the previous flight from Delhi to Ahmedabad were an indication that the entire electrical system was ready to quit.

Don't know about "massive electrical failure" causing engines to "shut down".  AFAIK, positive voltage must be applied to the fuel shut valves to close them.  I guess maybe igniters would quit?  But the engine fuel control should be powered off the engine accessory gearbox?

 

Electrical problem needs to somehow affect both engines.  Now I guess there are various sensors that are triggered/computer processing when aircraft transitions from "on ground" to "in air", though I guess some of these might be "locked out" initially.

 

The one thing that kind of bothers me is the TCMA - Thrust Control Malfunction Accommodation.  "Shouldn't" have anything to do with it, but until it can be positively eliminated on the fault tree...

@scott967 Scott, what are your thoughts on loss of multiple buses leading to loss of power or load shedding of  boost pumps, and the capacity of suction feed at take off thrust?

Edited June 16, 2025Jun 16 by jon b

 

Hi jon ,  you have previously stated (Page 8 first post)  -- 

 

 On 6/14/2025 at 12:30 PM, jon b said:

    There’s no way anyone would be tankering return trip fuel between India and Europe with a full pax load.

    Youre barking up the wrong tree here

 

 

12 hours ago, jon b said:

I presume you were referring to my posts there as I seem to be the only person in this thread disputing your claim the aircraft was tankering

Well there were other people also who mentioned tankering but you seem to have made such a bold statement that made me wonder why would Air India not tanker fuel between India and London.

A strong motive for tankering would be cost of fuel...  so I looked for incentive for them to tanker  therefore I googled   (yes I do use Google and AI to find out things , dont know what you use)  and for the benefit of the thread I posted my findings.

 

12 hours ago, jon b said:

What I’m saying is that particular flight did not dispatch with 242 POB and 125,000 litres of fuel on board, it would not have got airborne off that runway in those conditions,Period.

Well first point here is that throughout your replies you keep accentuating the 125,00 litres of fuel since I said that figure.... to kind of show I'm wrong with this therefore I'm wrong and your right ...   well the fact is,  we're talking about tankering here therefore the main point to this is getting as much extra fuel on board as you can. 

The exact figure is dependent on the aircraft limitation figures whatever they workout to be at takeoff. PERIOD.

 

 

12 hours ago, jon b said:

I’m more than familiar with the concept of tankering fuel without needing to refer to an AI search.

I'm not, therefore I googled and used an  AI  search.....   

 

 

12 hours ago, jon b said:

If you take a look at my signature below you may note I’m a  senior Airline Captain rated on the Boeing 787 & 747-400 and have indeed tankered fuel myself on many occasions.
I also have current first hand experience of operating 787s between India annd Europe and the flight planning and performance issues which operating in that climate involves .

 

Yes great knowledge and experience you have and thanks for using it to help the thread... for instance when someone asks you for some figures about the flight planning of the Air India trip and suddenly you become very vague and say your too tired to work it out...  You state that your a Senior Airline Captain as per your signature....   but your signature seems to omit the Senior part of your Title...  what are you really ? 

 

 

PS In case the signature gets changed here is a pic....

PPS -  In your post you said - Youre barking up the wrong tree here

   Doesn't the word  BARK  have conotations with the word DOG...  just wondering what your thoughts are.

 

Your Quote "I am of course not infallible so yes, please do feel free to keep challenging anything I say and I’ll do my best to explain to you why I’m saying it, we’re all here at avsim to learn , I often have questions about software settings. However just please be aware my working knowledge on this particular subject has not been gained solely by using the default MSFS 787 and simbrief"

Edited June 17, 2025Jun 17 by aerostar

-

Edited June 17, 2025Jun 17 by aerostar

2 hours ago, aerostar said:

You state that you’re a Senior Airline Captain as per your signature....   but your signature seems to omit the Senior part of your Title...  what are you really ? 

OK, hands up you got me, I’m actually a 15 year old flight simmer pretending to be an airline pilot, however I do have a copy of of the quality wings 787 for P3D

2 minutes ago, jon b said:

OK, hands up you got me, I’m actually a 15 year old flight simmer pretending to be an airline pilot, however I do have a copy of of the quality wings 787 for P3D

Fantastic Jon🫡. By a strange coincidence I'm also a fifteen year old flight simmer but I'm masquerading as a primary school deputy head...and so's my wife!

8 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

Fantastic Jon🫡. By a strange coincidence I'm also a fifteen year old flight simmer but I'm masquerading as a primary school deputy head...and so's my wife!

Well done, just don’t get caught !

If you happen to know anyone masquerading as a veterinarian, there’s a question about dogs barking up trees they may be able to help with. It’s beyond me.

Edited June 17, 2025Jun 17 by jon b

...well blow me down.. and I thought this was a kinda serious thread about investigating a mass loss of human life...  

 

More problems today for a 787 8 of AIR INDIA always at the airport of Ahmedabad.

The flight AI-159 Ahmedabad-London that was supposed to leave today at 3 pm (local time), the same as the one that crashed days ago, was cancelled due to unspecified operational problems but no one has given explanations on the reasons for this cancellation to passengers.

It should be considered that today an official and ex commander of AIR INDIA had communicated that the voices and data of the black boxes were clear and legible indicating that "there was probably no negligence by the pilots" indicating that "The probability of a technical cause is high and a preliminary report from the Indian AAIB is expected in a few days".

There are, for now, no statements on a possible connection between what was read on the black boxes and the cancelled flight.

3 minutes ago, RobPol471 said:

More problems today for a 787 8 of AIR INDIA always at the airport of Ahmedabad.

The flight AI-159 Ahmedabad-London that was supposed to leave today at 3 pm (local time), the same as the one that crashed days ago, was cancelled due to unspecified operational problems but no one has given explanations on the reasons for this cancellation to passengers.

It should be considered that today an official and ex commander of AIR INDIA had communicated that the voices and data of the black boxes were clear and legible indicating that "there was probably no negligence by the pilots" indicating that "The probability of a technical cause is high and a preliminary report from the Indian AAIB is expected in a few days".

There are, for now, no statements on a possible connection between what was read on the black boxes and the cancelled flight.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/operational-issues-air-india-ai-159-ahmedabad-london-flight-cancelled-passengers-say-no-explanation-from-airline/articleshow/121904260.cms

39 minutes ago, aerostar said:

...well blow me down.. and I thought this was a kinda serious thread about investigating a mass loss of human life...  

 

We're a flight sim forum speculating about a mass loss of human life but we do have some expert opinions to hand. That's all.

I can’t see any links to this video which shows a much clearer (sound and vision) recording of the lead up to the crash. Apparently the one posted last week was a video of a video hence the poor quality.

https://youtu.be/8XYO-mj1ugg?si=LIrj7cFiNpDh8Bx8

The RAT can be heard by this captain and he now puts possible contaminated fuel as his most likely reason. Flaps 5 appear to be set.