4 hours ago, martin-w said:

I think this kids are lazy and need "nudging" claim is just an invented notion, to be honest without much to back it up.

I agree.

While I have encountered "lazy kids" a few times, they aren't in the majority.  

I've discovered that some people have a near phobia of being thought to be lazy.  They appear to be industrious, but there are signs that there is an underlying laziness in them.  When undertaking a task, they'll often do it in a harder way than necessary, or will rush through a task to get it over with as quickly as possible instead of taking their time and doing it right. They often accuse anyone less overtly industrious than they are of being lazy, and can't abide it.

When I was working as a professional programmer, I usually worked 10 hour days, generally working through lunch and eating at my desk, then going home and putting in a few more hours on projects of my own.  But I cheerfully admit to being lazy.

Let me give you an example.  When I was in the Pentagon working on a mainframe, I handled a 36 month database update.  This involved submitting 36 individual jobs and having to monitor them.  This was time consuming and a general pain.  So I automated it.  I did some research and figured out how to automate the submission of jobs, then wrote a program to generate and submit each individual job, and the last task in that job was to generate and submit the next job in the queue, all in COBOL.  My boss dubbed it The Living Program.  The idea was adopted for other jobs across multiple agencies.  I was recommended to come back as a contractor to implement this. I didn't.

This job ran overnight.  By coding the job name with the month being updated, I was able to monitor it from home.  Call the operators and ask what job was running, and what the status was.  If the process had stopped, I'd get the completion code and tell the operator what to do, or in extreme cases I could go back in to work to fix it.  Generally a job would fail because a necessary data tape wasn't mounted in time and the job timed out. "Just re-submit the last job."

All because I was "lazy".  

Read the Heinlein story of "The Man Who Was Too Lazy To Fail" (or google that phrase and read the AI overview) in his book "Time Enough For Love".  Or read it here:

https://andrewmbailey.com/papers/2917 stuff/man who was too lazy to fail.pdf

I figure the wheel was invented by a lazy person.

This isn't the same as young people refusing to get jobs, of course.  I have a nephew who apparently thinks he's going to get rich playing video games.  I don't know the details.  For all I know, he may be right.  But he's never had a paid job, never interested in getting a driver's license.  But it's none of my business and I've never lost my cool about it.  That's a sample size of one.  I don't worry about it.

Sorry for the long post.  Congrats to anyone who actually read it.

Hook

Edited July 27, 2025Jul 27 by LHookins

14 hours ago, LHookins said:

no wonder young people don't want to work

Pretty sure sleeping while being paid isn’t deemed “work”. 😉

8 hours ago, martin-w said:

Average house purchase is cheaper, at 300,000... but 300,000 is still a huge debt for a youngsters, necessitating a very big mortgage

And that’s why I/we rented, had roommates, a wife, and waited until mid 30’s … my first home was $650,000 (some 26. years ago) … if “youngsters” can find a home for 300,000 BPS that seems affordable.  I’m sure some UK jobs don’t pay the same as some US jobs and visa-versa … but I have UK relatives and I know how much my cousin gets paid and how much she gets from the government for having an autistic child (she does have issues, but nothing that would prevent her from working).

We had no debts, 25% down … mortgage was affordable and we (2 of us) were on a budget.  The real-estate crash in 2008, drop the value down to $330,000 … very very slowly recovered, and we sold it for $679,000.  Home purchase was definitely NOT a good investment (especially after property taxes, HOA fees, special assessments, maintenance, etc.).  I’ve made considerably more in stock market investments.

8 hours ago, martin-w said:

These are just invented notions, I would say. But if any research proves this is the case, fair enough.

Are you currently working?  If so, are you a hiring manager that does interviews of potential candidates?  I’d be more than happy for you to spend a day, a week, a month, a year in my work environment so you can share the experience.  I can provide you with a LONG list of younger (upto about age 30 or so) Adults that come unprepared and entitled.  What I presented so far is just scratching the surface … I have many examples from decades of software engineering and management.

As far as “data”, nothing really exists … there have been some studies but nothing really conclusive and very small sample sets.  After someone is rejected for a job, even when going thru an agency, they rarely keep any statistics of why an applicant was rejected (in many cases privacy laws).  The only way one could get a sense of the issue is by being a hiring manager, which I am.

A linkedIn article might provide some clues:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/bridging-gap-struggles-todays-youth-securing-job-opportunities-r-ksjcc/

Or try a Google AI search and see what you find. 😉 

Clearly we have different beliefs in bring a child into this world, you look at is an exchange, I look at it as letting that life be what they want to and can be without guilt or the need to take care of me and/or my wife.  We’ve worked hard and long enough and saved enough to not need their assistance.  And if I end up in a Memory care facility with dementia, the last thing I want is my child (who I will not remember) waste their time with me (or worse yet, give up their jobs or get fired from their jobs because I was needing so much care and attention) …  go live their lives, not mine.

But to be clear, I’m not trying to suggest a wrong or right here … only my experiences and how I believe the best life for my offspring.  

 

Edited July 27, 2025Jul 27 by SayAgain

13 hours ago, LHookins said:

It means they had 5 years experience writing queries, but never designed a relational database.

No, you can’t write correct or efficient queries without understanding 3NF.

3 hours ago, LHookins said:

I have a nephew who apparently thinks he's going to get rich playing video games.

And so do I … I tried to suggest he would make more learning C++ and Graphics APIs and coding the games than playing the games.  He took my advice, went to a trade school but dropped out because it was too difficult.  So now he wants to be a game designer rather than a “professional game player”.

Game designer job is extremely difficult to get with any experience … unless you create your own company and you hire software engineers.  Game designers rarely have long careers, just one failed title and you’ll never see another opportunity. 

 

2 hours ago, SayAgain said:

Pretty sure sleeping while being paid isn’t deemed “work”.

Pretty sure we're allowed to take breaks.

3 hours ago, SayAgain said:

I tried to suggest he would make more learning C++ and Graphics APIs and coding the games than playing the games.  He took my advice, went to a trade school but dropped out because it was too difficult.

That was a likely outcome.  At Army programmers school at Ft. Ben Harrison, half the E4 and below dropped out.  Not because they couldn't do the work, but because they didn't care to put in the effort, and one guy who just didn't want to do this for the rest of his enlistment. I was an E5 at the time, and we also had an E6 and a bunch of foreign officers from Syria and Zaire.

Programming takes a certain mindset and isn't for everyone.

Quality Control people don't need to be programmers, and it's probably better if they aren't.  I suppose that's one way to "make money playing video games" but does require special effort beyond just playing.  The QC people were worth their weight in gold in the CAD/CAM project.

Care to mention any programming projects you've worked on where you've contributed to the code?  Even stuff you've done away from work.  I've talked about several of mine.

I'm guessing if this were a comic, I'd be Dilbert and you'd be Catbert.

Hook

Edited July 27, 2025Jul 27 by LHookins

4 hours ago, SayAgain said:

But to be clear, I’m not trying to suggest a wrong or right here … only my experiences and how I believe the best life for my offspring.  

 

To be clear,  do you actually have any 'offspring' of your own?

Parenting is an area where there's no right and wrong, just different.  I'll happily support my kids to achieve their life goals however I can, but I won't tolerate them lazing around and leeching off me when they're older, if they're not prepared to put some work in and make sacrifices for themselves as well.

1 minute ago, kevinfirth said:

I'll happily support my kids to achieve their life goals however I can, but I won't tolerate them lazing around and leeching off me when they're older

Absolutely!!  😄 

This sums up my parenting philosophy with one addition:  I always treated my son with respect.

Hook

I think "lazy" is a loaded term.  We're ignoring one big factor - reward (or perceived rewards).  Honeslty, there's times in my life where I worked my behind off, other times where I was barely coasting along.  

I've worked jobs where I knew I was respected and had an opportunity to grow.  I've also worked jobs where there was no real path forward and it was just a paycheck.  In the latter situation, am I going above and beyond?  Heck no.  Does that make me "lazy"?  

I've worked for bosses who I would almost run through fire for, and bosses who I might not spit on if they were on fire.  

If a dozen people work for you and one or two aren't performing, you've got some bad people.  However if most of them are not performing, you have a leadershiip/reward problem.  It goes both ways.  We should criticize people not working hard, but also, companies who de-motivate people.  Those definitely exist, and seem to me like it is becoming more normal.  

Anyone ever been at a place that had mass layoffs?  Everyone left gets pulled into a meeting and told they need to "work even harder to make up for the loss".  Really?  Most of them already have their resumes updated.  

 

Edited July 27, 2025Jul 27 by kerosene31

7 minutes ago, kerosene31 said:

Anyone ever been at a place that had mass layoffs?

I consider myself lucky that I worked for Collins Radio in 1970.  I was a technical illustrator (think: draftsman), one of about 50.  The layoffs started, I was about number 25 to go.  Every Wednesday they'd put a box on someone's desk, and this was how you knew.  One Wednesday there was no box... it came on Thursday instead.  I don't need to describe the morale.

It taught me that jobs aren't permanent.  No more work 20 years for one company and get a gold watch.  

Hook

9 hours ago, SayAgain said:

Clearly we have different beliefs in bring a child into this world, you look at is an exchange, I look at it as letting that life be what they want to and can be without guilt or the need to take care of me and/or my wife

 

Of course I don't view it as an exchange and that's offensive to be honest. But the point Hook made regarding "what goes around comes around is valid and worth considering if anyone has the urge to do a bit of nudging out of the family home. 

I've never had to nudge my kids and they are first rate human beings. My point is that if my kids felt at any time of their lives that it was better for them to live at home, then that's absolutely fine and they would be welcome with open arms, they would always have a home to come to. You see, my kids don't leach" or take advantage. I'm sure there are some like that but its a minority, not the majority that you seem to be implying.

It makes far more sense, in the current economic, climate with sky high mortgages, to stay at home until you've amassed a decent deposit. It makes zero sense to leave home, be broke, and share an expensive rented property (or dump) with strangers, friends or whatever. Where is the logic in that. And if a parent makes that scenario a reality by "nudging" them out of the family home, then I think that's pretty dodgy parenting. And yes, selfish to be honest. And if anyone claims its to build their character I say that's BS. 

This, "millennials" or GenZ youngsters are lazy thing is trendy internet stuff that's not possible to definitely prove one way or the other, and the very term is subjective. We are arguing about subjective, impossible to prove concepts that are dependent on personal opinion and  experience that's influenced by career, location and other random factors that don't apply to everyone.

 

So do you actually have any offspring?

 

Edited July 27, 2025Jul 27 by martin-w

2 hours ago, kevinfirth said:

but I won't tolerate them lazing around and leeching off me when they're older,

 

I dont think that's something you would have to worry about, because Im sure you've done a fine job of raising your kids.

4 minutes ago, martin-w said:

I have no issue with my kids "leaching" or taking advantage.

Most of the time my son was working, but there were times when he was between jobs.  I figured the lack of spending money was incentive enough for him to find work. 🙂  I didn't pressure him.

Hook

Edited July 27, 2025Jul 27 by LHookins

9 hours ago, SayAgain said:

are you a hiring manager that does interviews of potential candidates?

 

Not relevant. You didn't originally say, in my locality young people are lazy, or in my workplace, or the young people I interview are lazy... you made a generalized statement. What happens in your small sphere of influence is not the same as your original  generalized statement that I disagreed with.  What happens in your sphere of influence tells us nothing about the attitude of youngsters elsewhere. 

This thread was supposed to be about the negative influence of social media and whether it Was a catalyst for the worsening mental health of young people. Not quite sure how it became about personnel opinions as to whether certain generations are lazy or not.