14 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

1. Predatory trading practices such as dumping, currency manipulation, theft of intellectual property, high import tariffs, and trade barriers.

2. Huge direct govt. subsidies to their industries.

3. Stupid and greedy American companies who moved their production to China over the past 40 years.

1.  US does all that too 

2.  US does all that too (especially with oil)

3.  So you are against Capitalism?  

2 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

You can count me out, I don’t believe in chance or luck only probability.

Kevin used the term correctly.  Some of us actually studied statistics.

Hook

10 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Some of us actually studied statistics

I do more than study it, I create the queries that gather it all up and process it into something useful.  And now I’m using LLMs to process even more data.

18 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

I do more than study it

That's what I thought.  Two years, late 70's, American University, Washington D.C.

I did more than study it, too.  A coworker was on vacation with an analysis project on his desk.  We'd learned about SAS (Statistical Analysis System) in class and we had it on our computers.  I did the analysis, turned it in, and it was used.  Official Army stuff for the Army Department of Transportation.

Not bad considering the only reason I took the courses was to be able to analyze wargame combat results tables.  Very useful as it turned out.

Hook

Edited August 7, 2025Aug 7 by LHookins

21 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

 Dave is the one that suggested Capitalism produced wealth so I showed him where all the wealth is … then Dave shifted to population growth as somehow related to what he said about Capitalism.

Yes, capitalism created all that wealth in California *in the past*.  California has changed drastically over the past 30 years, however, which is why the State is losing business and people.  I also failed to mention earlier that the film industry is also a huge contributor to its wealth.  I don't know if you've noticed or not, but more and more movies and TV shows are being filmed outside of California over the past 20 years or so. 

Many industries are relocating to Texas and other States.  The decline is underway whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.  It is ashamed as it is indeed a beautiful place.  Same goes for Washington and Oregon - beautiful places with destructive policies.

Nations and States rise and fall, but it takes time.  The signs are all there.

Dave

 

24 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

1.  US does all that too 

2.  US does all that too (especially with oil)

3.  So you are against Capitalism?  

Well, you're just spouting nonsense now.

The USA has had very low tariffs for decades.  This is why so many US companies were able to offshore their production and even their headquarters and then export their products back to the US and make huge profits.

The USA does not engage in dumping or theft of intellectual property.

Oil subsidies in the USA are actually quite small.  The European Union has higher oil subsidies than the USA.  Look it up.

The USA only lately decided to provide direct subsidies to some of its industries mainly for national and economic security reasons, but we have not historically done this.  We almost have to considering that many other countries do it.

Just because I complain that greedy US companies offshored their production doesn't mean that I'm against Capitalism.  Tariffs are a good start to bring things back into balance where this issue is concerned. 

So many people are saying now that tariffs are bad because the US decided to impose them, but If they are truly so bad, then why does almost every other country have them?

You should do a bit more research on this stuff.

Dave

21 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Many industries are relocating to Texas and other States.  The decline is underway whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.  It is ashamed as it is indeed a beautiful place.  Same goes for Washington and Oregon - beautiful places with destructive policies.

Companies outsource to the American South the same way they outsource overseas - a cheaper non-union workforce with low taxes and fewer social programs. When they need specialized knowledge and skills, it's generally to higher cost jurisdiction because that's where the right people are.

To keep it on an aviation topic, I'll throw out the change in results when Boeing outsourced from WA to SC.

Cheers

7 hours ago, martin-w said:

Except that these days, it’s become corporatism.

What? It’s always been that way. 

20 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

So many people are saying now that tariffs are bad because the US decided to impose them, but If they are truly so bad, then why does almost every other country have them?

Chart growth since 1990 versus the decline in average tariff rate. They're related.

I'd also argue that if tariffs are so wonderful, why did the US Constitution outlaw them within the United States from Day 1? How much migration would there be to southern states if California and New York (you know, the states with the money) applied a tariff to compensate against the unfair low-cost competition? 😉

Cheers

32 minutes ago, Luke said:

I'd also argue that if tariffs are so wonderful, why did the US Constitution outlaw them within the United States from Day 1?

You mean between two states, right?  Seems like a good idea to me to outlaw that.  Tariffs are normally charged between countries.

I don't have an opinion on the current tariff situation, and I couldn't do anything about it if I did.  I'm willing to wait and see.

Hook

Edited August 7, 2025Aug 7 by LHookins
Insufficient proofreading

23 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

What? It’s always been that way. 

 

Its relative. Worse these days.

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

Stupid and greedy American companies who moved their production to China over the past 40 years.

I’m confident that Stupidity and Greed are alive and well everywhere regardless of arbitrary lines on a map. 

20 minutes ago, Luke said:

Chart growth since 1990 versus the decline in average tariff rate. They're related.

I'd also argue that if tariffs are so wonderful, why did the US Constitution outlaw them within the United States from Day 1? How much migration would there be to southern states if California and New York (you know, the states with the money) applied a tariff to compensate against the unfair low-cost competition? 😉

Cheers

Oh, I don't think that tariffs are wonderful at all.  I would prefer to see completely free trade, but that's not how the world has worked as almost every other country has imposed high import tariffs, trade barriers, and quotas.

I was never against offshoring of low-skilled labor making lower value products not essential to US national and economic security.  However, we have a situation now where 80% of pharmaceuticals and pharmaceutical ingredients are imported, 80+% of rare earth minerals are imported, 80+% of electronics hardware is imported, most of our electrical transformers are imported, we were gradually losing our steel and aluminum industries, etc. etc.  If a country becomes utterly dependent on other countries for the very things it needs to survive, especially unfriendly countries, then it won't remain a sovereign country for very long.  

The only way to get this manufacturing and production back is to either spend hundreds of billions on direct subsidies, or get the money from tariffs, which I do believe will raise prices on some products BTW.  The tariffs will not be "eaten" 100% by other countries or companies as is claimed.  Unfortunately, nothing is free, and this reshoring will come at a cost.  If we're not willing to sacrifice a bit to accomplish this, then we are doomed in the long run.  We've tried cutting taxes and deregulating with some positive results for reshoring, but not nearly enough.

Dave

7 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

Its relative. Worse these days.

There is nothing new under the sun with the exception of technology. 

we’re simply better and more widely informed. 

39 minutes ago, Luke said:

To keep it on an aviation topic, I'll throw out the change in results when Boeing outsourced from WA to SC.

They should have moved the plants to TN instead of SC.  The results would have been much better.😉

Dave