14 hours ago, blingthinger said:

Now... you've said "well but I don't wanna get it from LR. I just want to enter my google account info and fly" That's fine.

?  where did I say that?  not me

 

17 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

People have being writing xplane off for years. Its still here.

Yep, but what does that have to do with my comment?  Someone suggested LR business model is to just sell copies and not care if 90% of their customers don’t use it after a short period.  That’s NOT LR business model because it’s not a long term viable one.  Never mentioned anything about writing off XP?

This thread is getting weird … any attempt to provide positive feedback gets warped into something completely different.

11 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

This thread is getting weird … any attempt to provide positive feedback gets warped into something completely different.

Let’s not blur the lines here. You’re giving feedback, but whether it’s “positive” or not is subjective. Everyone has feedback.  I get plenty on the addons I build, and some of it is...unorthodox (flushing toilets come to mind).

People pushing back on your take isn’t “warping” it, it’s just disagreement. You can agree to disagree, but calling them “wrong” over a subjective opinion starts tipping into arrogance.

7 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

?  where did I say that?  not me

 

Not exactly that, true, but you've said you'll gladly pay any subscription fees and LR won't be providing the service any time remotely soon which means you're left with exactly that process: enter login info somehow to legally access imagery and photogrammetry at will.

I can't tell if you prefer streaming or local cache. You've mentioned both. You can already fill your massive network-drive-based cache with ortho4xp and the other manual process to get photogrammetry cities which makes your original desire entirely moot if you're willing to do the leg work yourself but I don't get the impression you are willing to go that route....which means you're just wanting to lazily stream it in and that takes us back to just wanting to enter some paid account login info to get access to the scenery you desire.

8 hours ago, GoranM said:

You can agree to disagree, but calling them “wrong” over a subjective opinion starts tipping into arrogance

Now you’re doing it?  I did not call anyone “wrong”?  

8 hours ago, GoranM said:

Let’s not blur the lines here. You’re giving feedback, but whether it’s “positive” or not is subjective.

And?  The original video posted that started this thread is “subjective”.

8 hours ago, blingthinger said:

you've said you'll gladly pay any subscription fees and LR won't be providing the service any time remotely soon which means you're left with exactly that process: enter login info somehow to legally access imagery and photogrammetry at will.

Is there some sort of lost in translation going on?  So how would I login to get the imagery and PG if LR doesn’t support the processing of it via XP code base?  This makes no sense and no idea how you got “well but I don’t wanna get it from LR …”??  No, I do want LR to support streaming of PG, that’s my point … if the cost is too high for LR to manager the servers/data/bandwidth, then just add code base to support streaming and let the customer pay for connectivity (just like RealTraffic, NaviGraph, SimBrief, VATSIM, etc.).  I didn’t give a timeline (not mine to decide), it was a request so I don’t see how you even related it to “anytime remotely soon”?

Streaming and local cache are not mutually exclusive.  You stream the data and store it locally so that next time you fly that same cached area you don’t have to stream the data, you get it locally.  Over time, as you fly more areas, you’ll accumulate more and more local cache PG.  Eventually you’ll probably not even need to be streaming any more once you’ve covered all the areas you want to fly.

Just getting more and more bizarre … I’ll move along and leave you folks alone to get whatever it is you want to get out of this thread.  But from my perspective of what some (not all) have said:

1.  It’s a professional simulator but I don’t want to pay for better visuals because they are perfect “as is” and Professional apparently doesn’t mean more realistic visuals (called candy).

2.  The LR business model is to sell millions of copies and expect only 20% of its customers to continue using  the product as viable.

3.  Ignore that 71% simmers using PG because they are just lowly gamers and it’s too expensive for LR to manage and no alternative approach to the financial aspect is acceptable.

If that’s correct, then good luck, no idea why this thread was started (again).

8 hours ago, blingthinger said:

which means you're just wanting to lazily stream it in and that takes us back to just wanting to enter some paid account login info to get access to the scenery you desire.

Oh I see, I’m lazy now because I want to focus on flight and flying … shame on me for being so lazy.

Seems to me like your focus is to not pay for anything you use regularly nor support it’s continued development so that it can progress to the “professional” status.

16 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

1.  It’s a professional simulator but I don’t want to pay for better visuals because they are perfect “as is” and Professional apparently doesn’t mean more realistic visuals (called candy).

2.  The LR business model is to sell millions of copies and expect only 20% of its customers to continue using  the product as viable.

3.  Ignore that 71% simmers using PG because they are just lowly gamers and it’s too expensive for LR to manage and no alternative approach to the financial aspect is acceptable.

I still would like to know where they have said this???, or is it just your opinion on other comments which may not have said this at all. That is bizzare

36 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

Oh I see, I’m lazy now because I want to focus on flight and flying

Apologies....I did debate using that word wondering if you'd misinterpret it as a slight against you. It was meant to generally describe the process, not you personally.

 

42 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

Streaming and local cache are not mutually exclusive

Streaming is certainly independent of cache and use of cache (especially large) is more "downloading" than "streaming". I do wonder how many folks actually enable the cache.

 

45 minutes ago, SayAgain said:

it’s too expensive for LR to manage and no alternative approach to the financial aspect is acceptable

You have understood this correctly. I think. XP made ortho famous in 11. For a few years there it was The Sim. If there was a financially responsible method to inject it straight into the users' systems, I'm sure LR would have jumped on it a while ago. Maybe you ignored the links I posted, but per their own statements, it's not feasible right now. You seem to think that it's cheaper than they are leading on but there's a few lose ends in your conclusions that still require addressing before we can all just run around hollering that it's only $2/Gb.

On 9/16/2025 at 5:04 PM, SayAgain said:

This is not a viable business model and XP wouldn’t still be around if this was/is their approach to future development work.  BTW, Steam provides a refund option for XP12.

I wish LR sold $1M units of XP12, as that would be $60M and more than enough income to employ more developers for a few years. 😉

Its not the "approach", its just what people do.

Steam refund only applies if you have used something less than 2 hours.

Thats because for the vast majority of software for the vast majority of people.

Most everyone gets bored after 5 or 6 hours and moves on to the next new shiney.

Btw, xplane mobile has more thab 100 million installs across apple and android, desktop XP12 is very likely around the half million mark by now, probably hit a million late next year.

Edited September 18, 2025Sep 18 by mSparks

5 hours ago, SayAgain said:

Now you’re doing it?  I did not call anyone “wrong”?  

I may have overstated, and if I misrepresented what you meant by “wrong,” that wasn’t my aim.

My point is just this: when feedback is presented as subjective (which yours has been), pushing back is totally fine. But sometimes people phrase things so they sound like objective “truths,” and that’s what I meant by “calling them wrong.”

If you didn’t mean that, then fair enough.  We can agree to disagree.

 

5 hours ago, SayAgain said:

And?  The original video posted that started this thread is “subjective”.

And my aim was to discuss its content.  I'm not trying to initiate some kind of debate.  I'm trying to get a conversation going.  Is he wrong?  Is he right?  Why and why not?  

There's no malice or ill intent behind it. 

The video that gave rise to this thread is probably the less subjective and biased I ever watched about a comparison between both platforms, and uses a rather pragmatic approach, showing and commenting on-the-fly about real aspects of both simulators.

There are circumstances where, just like I myself, the author finds MSFS 2024 to do a better or much better job and others where the opposite applies.

I think it is a good video to exemplify why simmers will benefit from using both simulators if they can (can be expensive to maintain both...).

Regarding the future scenery engine in Xp12 or Xp13, I simply look fwd into it. Last night I started using EMP again, this turn around with the Google 1 maps. It's nice enough for me, although I always miss details if flying a glider or heli over areas of Portugal I know well from above and surely look a LOT more close to real in FS 2024... But then, the helicopters themselves fly more believably in Xp12, than any in FS 2024, so... it's a tie...

It is extremely difficult to discuss the X-Plane vs MSFS comparison without triggering extreme emotions and takes extreme tiptoeing and diplomacy to avoid devolving it into mudslinging.

I would compare the delicacy of the discussion to answering your clearly overweight´s spouse question "Do you think I am fat?" 😁

There is no "discussing" perceived strength and weakness of any simulator without considering the underlying emotional layers on both side - if you want to utter critique without only triggering an enraged response, you need to bring out your best rethorical game.

Wrong: "X-Plane´s default scenery is worse than Minecraft!".

Right: "I love how X-Plane looks. Flying it gives me an unbelievable feeling of real immersion. It´s devs, and especially Austin Meyer, are the pinnacle of software engineering and their utmost skill and good looks are known and acknowledged around the world. I wish other simulators were anything like X-Plane.
 I am just a lonely looser and what do I know about flying, but I have heard that Laminar Research is considering to upgrade and improve their scenery - not on my account, I totally love it, but I have heard that some folks had some great ideas about how it could be EVEN better (as hard as that may sound to believe) by adopting the technology of photogrammetry and satellite imagery. Not in the imperfect and laughable way that other simulators have done so, but maybe..."

Get the point? 😆

Whatever awesomeness the future holds, I guarantee you this: someone will moan about it.

13 minutes ago, FPVSteve said:

Whatever awesomeness the future holds, I guarantee you this: someone will moan about it.

One thing I learned in marketing...If you don't polarize your audience, you're doing something wrong.  

And that quote comes in the form of many others.

Seth Godin often says: “If you’re not upsetting anyone, you’re probably not changing much.”

David Ogilvy (advertising legend): “If you try to appeal to everybody, you will end up appealing to nobody.”

Tim Ferriss (entrepreneur/author): “If you’re not 'angering' 50% of the people, you’re not trying hard enough.”

Art/criticism maxim: “Great art divides.” The idea being, if something is strong, bold, or meaningful, it won’t leave people neutral.

So...Austin and the Laminar team are definitely doing something right.

Edited September 18, 2025Sep 18 by GoranM

On 9/17/2025 at 3:50 AM, GoranM said:

flushing toilets come to mind).

When you guys are satisfied that your aircraft cockpits are perfectly functional and the exteriors are flawlessly beautiful is when you should get right to work on the lavatories 👍

15 hours ago, mSparks said:

desktop XP12 is very likely around the half million mark by now, probably hit a million late next year.

I’d be shocked if the desktop usage was that low…?

half a million seats would only work out to revenue of about $6M a year…