When BATC instructs to descend to a particular waypoint, which is the first waypoint in a STAR or maybe a transition, then says nothing about what altitude that is, is it expected to descend to the altitude constraint in the first waypoint in the STAR involved...or go to the last waypoint in the STAR?

This is a fake example but something akin to this happens enough and I'm not sure what the expectation is.  I might be at cruise or some descent point of say 22K feet, and BATC says, "Descend to CHRON, expect rwy 08L..." and when I look at the FMC (don't use approach plates/charts) so that's all I have to go on, and it's showing CHRON at 12K feet, is the expectation to proceed down w/o further instructions as indicated to the last waypoint in the STAR, 4K feet in my fake example, or await instruction on what to do next?  I think this is in part why I end up coming in too high sometimes as I'm waiting for instructions and there are none often.  When it says I'm clear for visual approach then I assume no further guidance.

Thanks in advance

Been a long time since Ive flown IFR but if I remember correctly (and someone will correct me) it should be something like "Noel 123, cleared direct CHRON, descend via the AVSIM 1 Arrival." or "Cross CHRON at 12,000."

I'd verify then submit a ticket to the devs. Unless this is a normal phraseology in the region you fly in.

As an aside, you can always ask for clarification of what the controller wants you to do. They can't take your cert for asking dumb questions. 

EASA guy here.

You are usually first cleared a STAR (this is not a descent clearance)

Then you will receive descent instructions such as "descend via the STAR to FL080".

I recall this was not standard in the US, where "descend via the STAR" without altitude clearance limit can be issued? Ping @ryanbatc

Anyhow, these discussions about cleared for descend tend to pop up ever so often, and regional nuances are always discovered. 😊

But ICAO is very clear.

"The use of a SID or STAR designator without a cleared level does not authorize 
the aircraft to climb or descend on the SID or STAR vertical profile. (PANS-ATM 
6.3.2.3 Note 2 and 6.5.2.3 Note 2)

In the USA you will hear a "Descend Via the ABC arrival" and that means you must comply with the altitude and speed restrictions on that arrival.

If ATC needs an altitude you'll hear just hear that but with "except maintain one two thousand (example)"

This is real life and not the sim - ATC in the sim is basically worthless for IFR ops.

As Ryan said, in the USA, descend via takes me down to the ending altitude unless ATC states otherwise. I may hear, "cleared the XXX arrival, descend and maintain 13,000". They cleared the arrival, but instructed me to descend to 13,000. When they say "Descend via the XXX arrival, cleared direct DMALL", I will start down on the Vpath, where ever that may be. I will set the ending altitude and verify my speed/altitude restrictions against speeds/altitudes in the box. They may also say, "Descend via the XXX arrival, cleared direct BIGIE, cross 50 miles South of BIGIE at or below FL200". I will still go down to the bottom altitude, but should do some magic/modification to the box to make sure as I descend, I am at or below FL200 50 miles South of BIGIE.

2 hours ago, Noel said:

don't use approach plates/charts

If you can get them in sim, that would be great! Do know that some of the ATC apps may not give you as realistic instructions as they should be. For example, some allow you to call for descent, but won't descend you when you ask. But having the charts will definitely give you situational awareness of how high/fast you should be by a particular point. You will know right away if you will make it or not. 

7 hours ago, Noel said:

 (don't use approach plates/charts) 

Oh man you definitely want to at least look at them.  Nothing really makes sense without context of a chart.

If you fly USA you can get them free either from the FAA, or just go to airnav.com and type the 4 letter airport ID, OR go to skyvector.com and right click the airport and it will give you a list of all procedures at that airport and you can either pop it out or open in a new window.

If you're trying to fly realistically in msfs having charts is almost mandatory...  

BATC is okay-ish for IFR flying but the default ATC is not hehe.  Default ATC actually works semi -ok for VFR though.

If you need help understanding charts or feel it's too daunting send me a DM and I can give you a crash course.  

19 hours ago, Noel said:

When BATC instructs to descend to a particular waypoint, which is the first waypoint in a STAR or maybe a transition, then says nothing about what altitude that is, is it expected to descend to the altitude constraint in the first waypoint in the STAR involved...or go to the last waypoint in the STAR?

This is a fake example but something akin to this happens enough and I'm not sure what the expectation is.  I might be at cruise or some descent point of say 22K feet, and BATC says, "Descend to CHRON, expect rwy 08L..." and when I look at the FMC (don't use approach plates/charts) so that's all I have to go on, and it's showing CHRON at 12K feet, is the expectation to proceed down w/o further instructions as indicated to the last waypoint in the STAR, 4K feet in my fake example, or await instruction on what to do next?  I think this is in part why I end up coming in too high sometimes as I'm waiting for instructions and there are none often.  When it says I'm clear for visual approach then I assume no further guidance.

Thanks in advance

I think you might be confusing something here. BATC never says „descend to WAYPOINT“. It will say „descend to FLxxx“ (in ICAO land) or „descent *via* STAR4C arrival“ (FAA land). I think you might be talking about the latter, so the USA.
In that case you are supposed to descent to the final altitude on the STAR. So look at the last waypoint on the STAR chart and that altitude is your descent clearance.

28 minutes ago, Fiorentoni said:

In that case you are supposed to descent to the final altitude on the STAR

17 hours ago, G550flyer said:

descend via takes me down to the ending altitude unless ATC states otherwise

Yep my bad it was 'Descent VIA STAR' and you've answered the question which was do I descend to the initial or final with this instruction.  Thanks!

 

 

12 hours ago, ryanbatc said:

Oh man you definitely want to at least look at them.  Nothing really makes sense without context of a chart.

Well, with the planes I'm in I'm getting the constraints in the route so at least know where I'm supposed to be.  I do use LNM looking at minimum off route altitude grid which is better than nuttin', but I do understand what you're saying as it's clearly, even to me!, a giant part of navigation for flight.  

That is a kind offer thanks.  Tell me if you will, how will looking at charts change what I do, using planes with advanced avionics and BATC?  How might it 'enrich' my experience?  It's a reasonable question for me because I have no problems doing what I do which is importing routes from SB and executing flights and in general don't have navigation issues just wasn't sure what the expectation was for 'Descend VIA'.

 

9 minutes ago, Noel said:

Tell me if you will, how will looking at charts change what I do

Actually, he is mentioning it from a real world/realistic perspective😁. In the real world, you as the PIC/El Capitan are ultimately responsible for the operation of the aircraft. ATC works as a teammate in IFR, but you readily will take the blame unless you prove and communicate otherwise. To stay out of trouble, you stay way ahead of the aircraft! Information is key to doing that, plus you want to make it look easy😉. Along with NOTAMs, weather reports/ATIS, etc., charts are essential for staying out of trouble. You use them to stay ahead of the aircraft. You manage the box(FMS/FMC) based on charts, you setup up the approach based on charts, you perform various procedures based on charts. Always informing you of where you need to be ahead of time, so no surprises. Once you are behind, you are in trouble territory. Based on charts, you know when to call for descent, when to start down, when to slow down, where and when to hold and how to fly the missed approach. If anything, they help you become a better sim pilot and give you understanding of real world ops. 

29 minutes ago, Noel said:

Tell me if you will, how will looking at charts change what I do, using planes with advanced avionics and BATC?
 

Chartplotters on boats say "Not to be used for navigation" when you turn them on. Many boaters ignore this and occasionally they end up perched on top of a rock being laughed at when the tide goes out.

Of course you can do what you like in the sim, but I like to use Navigraph charts to check the route in the FMC is 'correct' and to know where I'm supposed to be during the arrival/approach.

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Tell me if you will, how will looking at charts change what I do, using planes with advanced avionics and BATC?

In this case, there is an assumption the VNAV and BATC are accurate. Even RW pilots don't fully trust the VNAV and monitor the constraints on the way down.

The charts are basically the map of where you are going. Now, Navigraph is using a GPS to plot your point. But even using something like chart fox is helpful.

But here's the thing with BATC, and AI apps. You say you come in fast and high. This is because BATC and its ilk are famous for just vectoring you right onto the FAF. At the least, the approach charts tell you the routes, altitudes and speeds you should be at. Now, granted, some of those are for traffic considerations. But sometimes it's terrain. Which as people have noted BATC does a horrid job of its awareness.

I've noticed sometimes what VNAV thinks the constraints should be, and what they actually are can be two different things.

1 hour ago, flyingscampi said:

I like to use Navigraph charts to check the route in the FMC is 'correct'

This is key! I do it in sim the same way I do it real world. I verify the departure in the box against the chart to make sure it matches. I have seen before where the particular sim aircraft I am flying will miss an initial attitude restriction or speed. I also use the chart for verifying the taxi route I'm given. Even if the sim/ATC app has the taxiways mislabeled, I can use the chart to match up to the intended route. 

43 minutes ago, G550flyer said:

I verify the departure in the box against the chart to make sure it matches

Not a pilot, but as a sailor I plan a trip on Admiralty charts, then check the chartplotter matches. No vertical navigation, but you still need to be wary of the ground on the East coast 🙂