UTOPIA <- what is it?

>Still I don't understand why at least these charts will not be>published by PMDG - these pages are free in the internet ->they are not the best, but you can at least estimate some>weights.You guys need to understand that this isn't up to us. Boeing holds a copyright over their airplanes' performance data and they've instructed us not to release it or facilitate its release. We've asked them multiple times and they don't want it released. Anything you're finding free on the internet is there illegally and against Boeing's terms with their airliner partners.

>>Still I don't understand why at least these charts will not>be>>published by PMDG - these pages are free in the internet ->>they are not the best, but you can at least estimate some>>weights.>>You guys need to understand that this isn't up to us. Boeing>holds a copyright over their airplanes' performance data and>they've instructed us not to release it or facilitate its>release. We've asked them multiple times and they don't want>it released. Anything you're finding free on the internet is>there illegally and against Boeing's terms with their airliner>partners.Ryan,this opens the question why PMDG is publishing a product which is NOT complete... Take-off performance data is ESSENTIAL for a flight simulation product! My take-off yesterday from EDDT was heavy overloaded and the FMS did not stop me... it calculated the V-speeds as usual ( btw: V1 at 171 kts - which would take me in case of abortion way into the landscape...)The mentioned pages with the "takeoff field length requirements" are on an official "boeing.com" site... therefore it should not be illegal. ( Accdg. to these charts any T/O on a runway with more than 3200m/10500ft should be safe - sea level and standart day - and at MAXTOW )Except for this "bug" its a fine product...Karl-Heinz - EDDI/THF " Tempelhof "" The mother of all airports " - Sir Norman FosterWill be closed Oct30,2008 - its a shame !http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

>this opens the question why PMDG is publishing a product which>is NOT complete... Your opinion what constitutes a "complete" product.>calculated the V-speeds as usual ( btw: V1 at 171 kts - which>would take me in case of abortion way into the landscape...)Then do not abort. This is simulation. If you want to practice aborts - use a 12000 runway or don't abort at full gross weight or don't abort at V1 or .... And if by chance you plow into landscape - I don't think you will have to call your insurance company.Sorry but your comments sound outright ridiculous. What's next - real oxygen doesn't flow out of a mask?Michael J.http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9320/apollo17vf7.jpg

I'm acctually going to agree with Karl on this one. I haven't bought or tested the MD11 yet, but it seems to be a very nice and realistic airplane. But without the appropriate charts (T/O preformance), the plane will feel rather useless if you ask me. What I mean is, you won't be able to fly like the MD11 is meant to be flown - without the charts/tools. So therefore, I'll wait and see how this one plays out...And no Michael J, Karl's comments don't sound "outright ridiculous" and further more Michael, you can't compare this situation with something like: "What's next - real oxygen doesn't flow out of a mask?" - that's just silly.And of course, this is __MY__ opinion. Can't stress that point enough these days...Abe

Wouldn't it be possible to create a program that calculates this data like TOPCAT without the actual copyrighted charts being released?Personally, I'm a RW pilot and know how to read the charts but I never do in FS because the planners are available (for the 744/763 for example). While I cant blame PMDG for Boeing's refusal to release the documents, you'd think they would have given us SOMETHING to work with here. How am I supposed to make my MD11 fully profitable if I cant fill her up with as much cargo as will get off the ground :)

Gents,I think this will be a discussion of flight simming in general - 1. We have no fuel costs - its not real2. Therefor we can operate our sim airplanes as we like to do - this is also not real3. We fill up our airplanes with pax, cargo and fuel then takeoff from an airport like my favorite one - EDDI/THF Tempelhof with a 6000ft runway - this is defenitely not real!I think we have to follow rules during flight simming despite the fact we don't have to call the "insurance company"...If I takeoff with the MD11 12 tons overweight for a specific runway it is not "safe" since I did not follow the rules! And I do not have the tools to follow the rules for takeoff - just as simple as this.BTW: I know that I cannot break my neck, not even break my computer ...Karl-Heinz - EDDI/THF " Tempelhof "" The mother of all airports " - Sir Norman FosterWill be closed Oct30,2008 - its a shame !http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

UTOPIA is similar to TOPCAT in that it calculates derates for takeoff.It also has a tool that will measure the length of the takeoff run from standing stop to rotate. If you give it enough take off data, it can then calculate derates for you (or tell you if you need more runway) depeding on the weather/runway/weight.It can be quite labourious, as it needs data for different weights, flaps and altitudes. I think about 4 different altitudes and 4 different weights for each flap setting, so thats 16 take off's needed for 1 flap setting. And thats not including any fixed derates (ie TO1 & TO2 - don't know if the MD11 has this).The file for the PMDG 737 has about 150 take off's in it, although you can reduce it somewhat by not doing all of the takeoff flap settings.

>> As a matter of fact you can easily see for yourself whether the >> takeoff is "safe" or not. You can cut one engine at V1 and see if >> applying max brake you can stop on this runway. If you can then >> your takeoff is safe. This way you can even find out the true >> performance of this particular simulation rather then rely on >> manufacturer's data - who said that there will be a complete >> agreement between this product and true aircraft - this way you >> will know exactly what is SAFE for THIS simulation.I agree with Michael. Some idea of performance is available - it's in the airport planning guide from the Boeing website. With a bit of careful work with the figures, you can be surprisingly close (it's a shame they're scans of what were clearly paper charts at some time in their life).Do accurate accelerate-stop tests at three weights: empty, max takeoff weight, and half way in between, and see where you stop. You might find it is roughly linear (remembering this is FS), therefore you have your TO distance tables for weight.Best regards,Robin.

Hi Robin,***it's a shame they're scans of what were clearly paper charts at some time in their life***Believe it or not...even the original MD-11 PERFORMANCE manual published by the manufacturer itself looks like if it was designed in ancient Egypt. The one I have is a 1300 something pages of pdf document. It's low res scanned text with even lower resolution charts. A few pages added after the year of 1999 have the real searchable text properties. I do not think the Long Beach department will ever re-tailor these charts to meet some high(er) quality requirements.regards,delcom

>this opens the question why PMDG is publishing a product which>is NOT complete... PMDG: Hey Boeing - can we have the T/O DataBoeing: NoPMDG: Please?Boeing: NopePMDG: Maybe in the future?Boeing: Can't say.PMDG: Okay everyone - scrap the MD-11 project. We don't have takeoff charts.That was your expectation?

>>this opens the question why PMDG is publishing a product>which>>is NOT complete... >>>PMDG: Hey Boeing - can we have the T/O Data>Boeing: No>PMDG: Please?>Boeing: Nope>PMDG: Maybe in the future?>Boeing: Can't say.>>>>PMDG: Okay everyone - scrap the MD-11 project. We don't have>takeoff charts.>>>That was your expectation? >Exactly - this thread is ridiculous. 4 years of work thrown out at the last minute because boeing won't give PMDG the takeoff charts. give me a break. I completely understand wanting the data, but to even hint that the product should not be released because it is "incomplete" without this data is completely asinine. NCCommercial Multi/Single - Instrument

>Exactly - this thread is ridiculous. Could not agree more ...Michael J.http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9320/apollo17vf7.jpg