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Johan_Dees

Big Jets: no FMC, like in the old days ?

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Captains,I like to know how many of you like for example flying the Jets with the CIVA INS ? Like the RFP with it instead of the -400 with a FMC and all glass cockpit ?Of course it is much easier to fly one of the PMDG aircraft, and it has a learning curve of its own, but when passing that, it is boring in my opinion, not much to do, all going automatic more or less. Altough the PMDG aircraft are state of the art.The GA people of course know what I mean, but this little survey is about the passenger transports, the heavy jets.. and or smaller exemplars.With flying the RFP with the CIVA INS for example gives one enough to do, checking it all, manual updating positions, manual fuel control.. speed management etc..And then, when you formulate your opinion, lets bring in online flying with this.. what are your opinions and expiriences when flying an old jet in that environment? doable?So come in with the ideas, stories and counter suggestions!JohanA LITTLE LESS CONVERSATION, AND A LITTLE MORE ACTION PLEASE..http://www.jdserver.mine.nu/johan

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I'm constantly revising my FMC plan. It never goes according to how you plan it. And making those revisions is fun on it's own. Staying ahead of the airplane.I love doing shorter flights in the Tin Mouse or the DF727 using plain old VOR's and radials. Also doing it the old fashion way in G/A flying (I love hand flying some of my Carenado birds).I like the variety to be honest, they each represent a different kind of challenge.

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Hi Johan,I agree that the modern airliners can get boring on a long flight. Like the real world, you're more of a systems manager than a pilot at times. I fly my LDS 767 and PMDG 737 quite a bit but, I usually keep the flights short so as not to get too bored. I think it's fair to say that if you are doing it by the book you should be able to stay fairly busy. You still should be crosschecking and verifying, etc but, when you have the little map in front of you, it's easy to blow that stuff off in the sim.My favorite flights however, are in the DF 727 with the CIVA INS. You really have to know what your doing to fly an airliner from point A to point B without an FMS and all the glass. "Steam gauge" flying requires you to pull out the charts and think. I stay busy through my whole flight and at times, have found myself mentally fatigued when I was done. There's nothing quite like a long cross country flight with an ILS approach, with the weather at minimums, to test your skills in a non-EFIS/FMS equiped aircraft. I'd use the 747-200 with CIVA for trans-oceanic. I just haven't got to it yet.I fly on VATSIM when I have the time. I actually have only flown the glass stuff online. I wouldn't have a problem online without it though. You just have to REALLY know what your doing because navigation is so much more important than flying solo, offline. If you make a mistake online, you could cause alot of problems for alot of people. Just like the real world, how 'bout that! I'm not saying that you need to be a 10,000 HR ATP but, you should have a good grasp on the basic aviation skills. It is not the place to learn what a SID is, how to land a 727, or what to do if your autopilot fails. With VATSIM, as in all things, the more effort you put into it, the more you get out if it.Humbly submitted withBest Regards,Jeff

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I agree, the big iron can get boring en-route. That's why my big iron purchase was an MD-80, I do usually 500-1000 mile hops. 1-2.5 hours doesn't get too boring and sometimes I'll just navigate by VORs and airways for fun.

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Like what the above poster said, It really shouldnt get boring if your doing things by the book. But on a 11 hour sector apart from the hourly fuel checks things can drag a litttle. I often switch to VOR raw navigation if things are not too hectic online, and just fly the old fashion way. Just go to HDG SELECT, Real world the PNF is normaly on raw navigation anyway.Rob

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Aha,a topic to my liking!:)I practically only fly the old iron offline and online (except when there is a big event online,then i tend to use the LDS763 of PMDG craft's because due to traffic flow,it's much easier to comply).I agree with most of the comments posted that with a glass cockpit,cruize can be quit boring as you just follow the FMC,look at the waypoints go by on the map and enjoy the view(if you're not flying over sand/water :().With the old iron,you are busy from pre-flight checks to shutdown checklist and i just love it.I mostly do cargo hops with the RFP742,DF727 or aerosim DC10/8.These hops include short cross country flights to long hauls over the atlantic.The fun about flying the old iron is that you have to stay ahead of the airplane and plan everything very well,or you'll get into trouble during the flight(especially when flying online!).And you have to stay focused during the whole flight and do alot of checks and crosschecks(fuel planning,INS updating,checking weather enroute and at destination,...)To fly these birds online is great fun,cause you're doing something else that few others do,and that gives me allready some satisfaction :).You do need to know your plane and your flight by the heart because,like in RW,you have to be able to comply with ATC instructions.You do have one advantage online,approaches can become very simple because you're not RNAV equiped.So most of the time,you'll get a DCT to a waypoint in your FP or to a nearby VOR station.Conclusion:Flying the old iron is great fun and really tests your skills as pilot more then a systems manager.But with this comes a grather steep learning curve,but IMO it is well worth it!Regards,Steven

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I love flying the concorde for just that - the whole constant management aspect of the aircraft, from speed, alt and a fuel balance perspective. Even flying online, when ATC requests that you cross XXX wpt at YYY alt and ZZZ speed just makes the whole thing much more of a challenge to accomplish - too easy in an FMC-managed aircraft really. I conquered FMC managed aircraft long ago - it is the pre-FMC, hands-on aircraft that make me tick now!Gary

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Although most of my time I fly FMC-equipped birds, I do love flying old-type iron too. I have spent hundreds of hours flying the RFP 747-200 (also merged with the Posky models) using its own navigation system as well as trying CIVA. Also the wonderful PT Tu-154. I agree with the previous posters on the amount of satisfaction you get while fully complying such a flight.The more so because we have to remember that in real life usually THRE PEOPLE take all these tasks on their shoulders. Older systems require a flight engineer and/or a navigator. So, what we do flying all those birds is an incredible (and unrealistic?) job. A reason to be proud, isn't it?As for flying VATSIM, I have never tried a non-FMC on-line flight, due to the extra amount of attention such flying requires. Somehow I believe it would be too much for me and I could possibly give rise to a virtually dangerous situtation. But, maybe one day...Best regards,Rafal

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I fly both but lately (at least a year) I've been on a non-FMC binge.My favorite planes:- Tinmouse- RFP- DF727One time I had an emergency (FSPassengers) and had to land my 737NG ASAP. After a few moments of trying to convince the FMC what I wanted to do, I just put'er in CWS mode!Then I decided for MY airline that CWS was how I was going to fly my NG's because of *cough cough* 737 Classics in the fleet. :)I'm sure it depends on your sim style too. Perhaps I'm not doing any complicated procedures that would be ardous without an FMC.Yes, you do get alot of satisfaction of it. Also, I find it very relaxing because I'm constantly involved and thus forget about whatever it was in life bugging me.

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>Yes, you do get alot of satisfaction of it. Also, I find it>very relaxing because I'm constantly involved and thus forget>about whatever it was in life bugging me.A good point! I guess this is (among other things) what keeps us all simming for years on end...Best regards,Rafal

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just tried online, but EHAM (!) wouldnt cooperate, no vor to vor.. it buggs me, I wanted to fly the Andik departure, but they kept telling me its not a route.. pff.. next time I fire up the INS.. brrrrJohanwww.jdserver.mine.nu/johan

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I prefer the old, high-workload iron also, mainly the RFP 747 and Tinmouse II, both because they require a fair amount of attention, and also because I grew up in the '70's when planes like this were state-of-the-art. Great fun when flying into the equally retro 9 Dragons VHHX. Even my favorite FMC-equipped bird, the Maddog 2006, has a higher workload than the more recent airliners.Gimme those round gauges any day!John G.

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I wish a new version of RFP was coming out, now perhaps with a 300 model as well. RFP was one of the best.RH

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I like a bit of both. The Yak 40 though can be a real handful on a short, busy flight :-) I wouldn't think of trying it on-line as I'm just not that quick any more ;-)

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