I'm with you...maybe a little more extreme than you in thinking that FS really doesn't portray landings that well. You CAN land a GA plane correctly in FS, but it usually doesn't really work out right. At least to me. I think it's a combination of no peripheral vision, no feedback and no ground effect. To the OP, I think you'd probably break the gear if you flew, unsupervised, in real life. I think that most strictly simmer's would, judging by the youtube video's I've seen, haha.LAdamson, can your Vans be switched between conventional and tricycle gear? How long did it take you to build? I've only heard great things about them. As an owner, how's the size? Would two 6ft guys be brushing elbows constantly?

i agree. Landings in FS is waaaaaay too easy. I can usually land anything in FS on my first try....as long as i stick w/ the numbers and stay above stall speed. This is definitely not the case in real life. Even in a 172, every landing is different. The slightest wind, time of day, temperature of the ground/runway, or how much the plane weights, etc will effect every landing. FS doesn't really seem to care about this information....or at least i can't feel it at all. In real-life, even a 3knt speed difference on final can effect how much you float. In FS, i can be faster by 20-30knts...and nothing changes...still the same-old-easy landing.

Nope, that's an adequate landing, a good landing is one you can walk away from and after you have done so, the aircraft can still be used :( Al

LOL...true that. Well said. -feng

I'm also one of those that started real world flying after flightsimming. Real-world flying is very different than the sim. I think FS captures about 20-30% of the over-all experience. It does a good job of simulating the numbers, but that's about it. Even a simple task such as taxiing is completely different in the real world. And stuff like weather is barely felt in FS unless the wind is crazy. You feel EVERYTHING in the RL (just like how you can feel your car run over even a small rock), and this is something FS can't capture at all (force feedback is a start, but it ain't even close to the real deal). And how about a high-speed/high-angle turn...the blood rushing to your head while trying to keep the instruments aligned is a weird feeling.anyways, back to the original question. I think the answer is a 50/50 because it depends on too many factors. I think they can if:- the runway is directly in front of the pilot at about 5nm out and the pilot has it in view (otherwise they might never see it until it's too late; spotting a runway in a busy city such as Los Angeles is sometimes really hard)- the runway is very wide and long- runway is at sea-level altitude- no high obstacles to clear on final (power lines, trees, high fences, etc.) - vis is unlimited- no clouds between plane and runway (going through clouds will completely disorient the first time flier imo). - wind is calm- temperature is normal. No extreme hot or cold conditions. Thus no need to worry about carb or pitot heat- day time with the sun behind the plane- the plane is forgiving, such as a 172 with very low stall speeds and a fast responding engine- the plane has fixed landing gears, and not a taildragger- no other traffic in the pattern- don't need to worry about the radios (sim pilots might not even know how to speak over the radio...meaning, holding down the button/trigger on the yoke...again, not simulated in FS) - plane is not too heavy or light- nicely maintained/oiled/correct tension cable plane w/ easy to move yoke/mixer/prop controls (i think most first time fliers will be surprised by the force needed to move the yoke...especially if they don't know how to use and "feel" the trim wheel to release pressure)if the above is met, the sim pilot can probably land it...but it ain't gonna be pretty...probably come in waaay too fast and bounce it a few times...but hey, a good landing is one that you can walk away from right?-feng

Feng I have to disagree with some of your post here but first I'll answer the original poster with a simple 'NO'. The biggest difference in the real world is you can't land a GA bird like an airliner in the real world. When you land in the real world you get over the runway at almost stall speed and when low enough cut the throttle, pull back on the stick to let your momentum help you with the final two second decent, and settle on the runway. Any throttle applied in that split second final phase of landing and your back in the air. A GA plane (especially a Cessna) wants to fly....Now back to Feng, you are very correct in most of what your saying if a simmer is using a joystick to fly Flight Simulator. If a simmer has yoke/peddle controls from CH Products for example Flight Simulator is a great tool to give you a feel for what it's like in the real world. With peddles you learn how to turn on the ground using your feet instead of the yoke, you can learn how to crab on landing and/or practice it. With a Yoke you get a better feel of flying the aircraft than you would otherwise. All that's missing is the feel of the real bird and peripheral vision... With add-ons like ASV (ActiveSky) you can get a decent feel for dealing with weather. The controllers you use make all the difference. Now I'm not saying FS replaces the real world but you won't get into a real plane feeling totally lost. The biggest thing is landing a real plane, it's nothing like a simmer would think. Now once a simmer learns how to do it correctly he can practice the proper way to land in FS and be that much better in the real plane next time he flies.

--------------- With peddles you learn how to turn on the ground using your feet instead of the yoke, you can learn how to crab on landing and/or practice it. With a Yoke you get a better feel of flying the aircraft that you would otherwise. All that's missing is the feel of the real bird and peripheral vision... The controllers you use make all the difference.

------------------------dillollo- good points. Until you have "flown" (simmed) with a peripheral view that approximates real life, it is hard to appreciate the inadequacy of single view flight sim. The wide 145

Nice pics but I should have added that the VC really helps in getting one familiar with where things are in the actual bird. You can get lost in a real aircraft if your used to pop-up 2D screens or the forward panel itself. I use the pan knob on my CH yoke to look around especially in the pattern for landing. If all I had at home was a 2D option I'd be in trouble in the real world. You have to keep your eyes outside the cockpit/aircraft. Simmers used to get in trouble in the air because their heads were always down looking at the gauges on the main panel (a no no in the real world). Your supposed to look at the gauges only for quick reference... Instructors always commented they knew a simmer from other types of students because their head was always in the cockpit. With the advent of VC's simmers have moved away from a panel taking up 85% of the viewable area in front of them, that's not how it is in the real world. In a real plane (especially an airliner like the 757, A319, or the 737) the panel sits down at an angle where your looking straight out the front window and only when you look down do you see the panel. Captainsim did a good job with their 757 the same goes for Level-D's VC. In GA planes it's a bit different but you adjust the seat to place your eyes above the top of the forward panel. You'd be in trouble on climb out sitting low enough in the cockpit where most of your view is taken up by the main panel. Even if one is sitting in the cockpit properly with the seat adjusted correctly you still have to periodically lower the nose on climb out to see ahead of the aircraft (of course this depends on how aggressive your climbout is). An aspiring pilot I would always tell when using Flight Simulator is to use the VC as much as possible and only call up popup views if the switches are too small in the VC and it affects your flying adjusting them. In turbulence use the pop-ups as well but a 2D panel does no perspective pilot any good in my book. Remember keep your eyes out of the aircraft looking around for potential traffic, weather, and/or other potential hazards (plus there's a great view to behold)...Another very important thing is framerates that's why I don't use FSX... FS9 is fluid and I'll go a step further in saying it's the most fluid version of Flight Simulator we've ever seen thanks to it's maturity on the market. For those aspiring to fly for real or get the best experiance as to what it's like you need the smoothest running platform possible. One sim may look better down low but if it's choppy that kills the fidelity especially in a pattern. Real world flying is smooth as silk. For the first time we have that on our home PC's. I liken it to sims like Elite and/or real Level-D sims. No these sims don't win any awards for best visuals but they have the fidelity and smoothness needed to simulate flight. FS9 is far beyond my examples in visuals especially with add-ons like Flight1's Ground Environment and ActiveSky V (ASV). I'm not trying to start an FSX versus FS9 war here but trying to give anyone the best tools in getting at home as much as possible what one get's in the real world. No you don't have the feel of the aircraft but with a smooth sim, yoke/peddles, add-ons like Caranado/Dreamfleet's birds and a good weather program your pretty much there....Feng I'll add something more here that I forgot to mention in the post above. Spotting an airfield is truly harder in the real world than it is in FS, the same goes for Traffic. You really have to keep your eyes open that goes back to my point of keeping your eyes off the main panel and on the world around your aircraft... Another thing Feng is various weather components in landing. You don't always need flaps when your coming in for a landing if the wind is too high. Accounting for weight should be done with the POH before takeoff and by the vary feel of the aircraft your senses should tell you what the bird is giving you. By the numbers is great but you go with what the plane is giving you and if you have to adjust trim here and there go with it, if you have to add a little throttle where otherwise you wouldn't have to then do it. Instinct is a pilot's best friend in VFR conditions. IFR/night flying is something totally different. In clouds you keep a sharp eye on your instruments but for the sake of 'can a simmer land a real bird' (in the daytime) which is what this thread is about I'll stay on topic. Yes a person coming in for a landing has to account for all the things you listed above but it all comes together somehow in the heat of the moment with a simple goal, "There's the runway, speed is life, and I have to get this thing down hopefully not using that much runway". A simmer has the basics but getting the bird down with the sweat building as you approach the concrete is another thing. Like I stated again and again the technique in the real world has to be learned or you 'will' mess something up which could potentially be dangerous... :(

Feng I have to disagree with some of your post here but first I'll answer the original poster with a simple 'NO'. The biggest difference in the real world is you can't land a GA bird like an airliner in the real world. When you land in the real world you get over the runway at almost stall speed and when low enough cut the throttle, pull back on the stick to let your momentum help you with the final two second decent, and settle on the runway. Any throttle applied in that split second final phase of landing and your back in the air. A GA plane (especially a Cessna) wants to fly....Now back to Feng, you are very correct in most of what your saying if a simmer is using a joystick to fly Flight Simulator. If a simmer has yoke/peddle controls from CH Products for example Flight Simulator is a great tool to give you a feel for what it's like in the real world. With peddles you learn how to turn on the ground using your feet instead of the yoke, you can learn how to crab on landing and/or practice it. With a Yoke you get a better feel of flying the aircraft than you would otherwise. All that's missing is the feel of the real bird and peripheral vision... With add-ons like ASV (ActiveSky) you can get a decent feel for dealing with weather. The controllers you use make all the difference. Now I'm not saying FS replaces the real world but you won't get into a real plane feeling totally lost. The biggest thing is landing a real plane, it's nothing like a simmer would think. Now once a simmer learns how to do it correctly he can practice the proper way to land in FS and be that much better in the real plane next time he flies.

yup, i totally agree. If a simmer has all that stuff, he is one step closer to feeling it out for the real world. I actually have the yoke/throttle/rudders, etc and it definitely helps. Tho i think most simmers just use a simple joystick, and that will not prepare them if they had to land a GA for the first time (as the original poster said). When i first started flight training, i remember having one heck of a time taxiing, because at that time, i used a joystick for FS and the rudder was controlled by twisting the handle. So when i got into the 172, it was very awkward to turn the plane w/ your feet! :) As soon as my first lesson was done, i went and bought the rudder controls for FS! LOLwhat you said about smoothness is so correct! I can't stand bad FPS. Having a good system to run FS will help with understanding the silky smooth nature of the real world. And of course a good plane to practice on. the original poster said he thinks he can land a single or a twin in any condition (except worst), even in a xwind.....i think that's pretty much impossible...maaaaybe in a single...a twin?? forget it. X-wind conditions are barely felt in FS, where as i'm always nervous going into a xwind landing in RL....nothing but cold sweat after landing....oh, what you said about VC is correct as well. Looking out the window is key in the begining of flight training. I remember my instructor saying "stop looking at the instruments...fly the plane...feel the plane and look out the window." This is why i don't use 2D panels at all in FS (i've actually deleted them completely from every plane).Another bad habit for simmers is the lack of safety. It's "fun" to fly into dangerous conditions or bad weather in FS...but it's something to avoid in RL. I'm also a sinner in FS when it comes to landing. Sometimes i'm too fast or too high, but i try to land it anyways. In RL, it would have been a go-around for sure...-feng

Awhile back we were all discussing what would happen if a simmer found him/her self in a situation where they needed to land a heavy with no practical flight experience other then Flight Simulator. I don

LAdamson, can your Vans be switched between conventional and tricycle gear? How long did it take you to build? I've only heard great things about them. As an owner, how's the size? Would two 6ft guys be brushing elbows constantly?

The plane can be built as a tri-gear or taildragger. But it's not a convertible. Most people take 2 or 3 years to build one. I took considerably longer. Two six foot guys at 230+ lbs still fit. But will be rubbing elbows somewhat. It's actually a hair wider than a Cessna 172.L.Adamson

I can say a lot of good knowledge has been exchanged here. I can remember when I graduated from finger flying the key board with FS4 to joystick in FS5.1 and by the time I actually flew with a CFI I had logged about 450 hrs of no non-sense flights. I never kept track of those flights that I just took off and messed around. These 450 hours were always planned out with all tools possible and with all capabilities that Flight Simulator could deliver at the time. So what I really gained was spatial apperception and a limited understanding of navigation. Instrument scan was not quite there because I was used to starring at tiny gauges on a 15 inch monitor. Yet, I remember the instructor asking me after one of our landings, "Are you sure you've never flown before?" My response, "Just Microsoft Flight Simulator..." Instructor laughs and replies, I thought you had something going on, but remember if we crash, you can't push the reset button or control-alt-delete and get us going again. Clearly, you cannot appreciate the physiology associated with flying while sitting at your computer or how to handle real whether affects. A good point was made about cross-winds. Can even the latest and greatest weather engines for FSX simulate x-winds gusts that require you to either add or decrease x-wind controls on short final or even force you to go around? I don't know and I am still considering getting an addon such as ActiveSky. Keith

The plane can be built as a tri-gear or taildragger. But it's not a convertible. Most people take 2 or 3 years to build one. I took considerably longer. Two six foot guys at 230+ lbs still fit. But will be rubbing elbows somewhat. It's actually a hair wider than a Cessna 172.L.Adamson

Awesome, thanks. I thought I read somewhere that they could be built so that you could switch between the two. I haven't had the pleasure of flying one (yet), but I am looking forward to it. I've only heard great things, and they look really good.I'm also glad to hear that it can hold two big guys, and that it's a little wider than the Cessna. It makes me want to look into building one if/when I decide to make the jump from renting to owning (way down the line)!

To be honest, the only thing I found really hard in flight training was radio communications. Well, that and going to an airport I had never gone to before. The flying part was a cinch. Even landings were easier, because once you made your runway, they didn't seem to slide over to one side or the other like they tend to do in a flight simulator. I felt having been a flight simulator was an excellente preparation, although I liked to look at my instruments more than my CFI wanted.But the poster above was right about airports not being very easy to see, surprsingly enough.Power on and power off stalls were fun in a way, but a little scary.

If anything, I think that flying in RW is easier, as you can "feel" the plane, and you have peripheral vision, something you just don't have in the sim. I have found that most of RealAir's flight models come very close to the real thing. It has the correct control response and will float if you come in to fast or flare to early. I've spent far to much time on VATSIM, so for me the radios are a cinch.I think the one thing that is dramaticaly different about flying GA in RL is the amount of turbulence, ie: flying over a plowed field in the late afternoon. I also agree that it is easier to see runways/cities/roads and most noticably the PAPI/VASI lights in the sim. In real life they all seem to blend into the surrounding area.

If anything, I think that flying in RW is easier, as you can "feel" the plane, and you have peripheral vision, something you just don't have in the sim.--------

----------------------------Joe- did you see the pics (single vs triple mon views) that I posted earlier in this thread?With this setup my Field of View is 145

Since simming is not perceived as dangerous and there is no pressure to do the flight, you always make right decisions. In real life flying however, you are constantly presented with tough choices. Should I go, or should I stay? Where to put this thing down if engine quits on me? Somehow simming seems a lot more forgiving. In real life, I 've been close to accidents but yet can not remotely get close to one in sim. For example, in the sim I have never had a gust of wind lift my wing up during a take off run. In addition to other things said, I think what makes a difference is anxiety. In real life I have mild anxiety in regards to self perservation as well as talking to controllers. To me this alone makes the experience a whole different animal.

I am a no fear kind of person who will do pretty much any dumb scary to most people thing thrown at him, ill jump off cliffs and feel fine, I have no problem with speed height ectIf i was alone in the plane and didnt have others lives on my hand, i really dont care about my own life. would flying be closer to simming for a person like me?

----------------------- Somehow simming seems a lot more forgiving. In real life, I 've been close to accidents but yet can not remotely get close to one in sim. For example, in the sim I have never had a gust of wind lift my wing up during a take off run. In addition to other things said, I think what makes a difference is anxiety. In real life I have mild anxiety in regards to self perservation as well as talking to controllers. To me this alone makes the experience a whole different animal.

frankla- For curiosity, I just set my local airport- FS9 weather/surface winds to Speed 10k with Gusts to 40K & moderate Shear Strength - on a heading 90