I don

I don

The $47 price is also patently absurd considering they did very, very little aside from create an simple installer.

The idea that the selling price of a good should reflect production costs is a marxist fib. Free market works (and more importantly is based on) different principles. Fortunately.Marco

The idea that the selling price of a good should reflect production costs is a marxist fib. Free market works (and more importantly is based on) different principles. Fortunately.

Agreed. And I agree with posts by FelixFFDS, Fr. Bill and mgh. If the price they charge is out of line (for the value they added) the market will be the ultimate judge. But what they did is legal.

Ah... so if you can bilk people of their hard-earned income... then have at it! Got it! :(If that's the method you believe is acceptable... to misrepresent/mislabel and overprice a free product... then I must question your moral fiber.

Agreed. And I agree with posts by FelixFFDS, Fr. Bill and mgh. If the price they charge is out of line (for the value they added) the market will be the ultimate judge. But what they did is legal.

And I'd like to add that Felix, Fr. Bill and mgh aren't the enemy. They are simply educating people like myself who did not know that something like this is legal. As to the free market, that's the huge value of these forums. All of my purchases of add-ons have been influenced by board members here, even the purchase of FS-X itself. Price, word of mouth advertising, quality of customer support and so on are all factors in knowing whether a purchase is worth it or not. If some feel strongly that this repackaging of Flight Gear is not worth it and worry over the naive making a purchase, they should make a point to post their thoughts whenever and wherever they can. But they shouldn't take it out on forum members here.-John

The $47 price is also patently absurd considering they did very, very little aside from create an simple installer.

FlightGear offers the program and the World Scenery on DVD for $49.99.The $49.99 price is also patently absurd considering they did very, very little aside from create an simple installer copying it to DVD.

The idea that the selling price of a good should reflect production costs is a marxist fib. Free market works (and more importantly is based on) different principles. Fortunately.Marco

What the heck are you talking about? There is no need to involve political systems in here, this is an FS site. What you've said is that is entirely ok to ridiculously overprice a product? And you've implied that this is a good thing too. Small and Medium sized Producers have to cover their costs if they want to obtain sustainable development and survive, at the same time if they get greedy and overprice it too much people will not buy it, so in this case it seems that the selling price of a good does somewhat reflect production costs (not just market state and opinion on price alone). Underpricing (in order to get rid of the competition or stimulate the market) and overpricing a product is usually only something a big or gigantic corporation (that has a dominant presence in the market) can do, these can also be considered monopolistic practices. In the free market, especially the EU, there is a stride towards a concept known as 'Fair Price', where consumers are not cheated and at same time corporations can make reasonable profits for their efforts.All this has nothing to do with FlightGear and the fact that a 3rd party who has in the past tried to sell it as their own product (according to FlighGear themselves) is attempting something similar now and charging $47 for an open source product, without any significant changes or developments to it. Apart from some kind of installer (which 'mgh' and co apparently conceive to be added value worth the $47 price tag) and no mention or evidence of any other worth-while additions to the 'product'. Also if this product is being sold under anything other than the GNU GPL, then it is completely illegal. People should be aware the the initial screenshoots advertising this 'product' were taken directly from the FlightGear site, this is illegal.Now if this was a significant improvement (and I mean significant) on the original free open source FlightGear, and substantial work had been done on the simulator and added to it, then it would be another matter. However it is simply a re-package of an open source software with a $47 price tag and an installer. Hell, you could get FS9 for under $15 or FSX Gold (with the Acceleration Pack) for under $30.I've got to say this thread has left a sour taste. Just because all this may be legal does not make it right. And this is not an attack on 'n4gix' Fr. Bill's early statements, neither was my other post. I know Bill was simply pointing out this may not be illegal. Thats why I did not address anything he said apart from the RedHat comparisons, which I felt were completely unfair. Either way I feel the need to introduce more information into this topic and point out clearly that this is morally wrong, no matter what legal loophole may have been opportunistically exploited.

FlightGear offers the program and the World Scenery on DVD for $49.99.The $49.99 price is also patently absurd considering they did very, very little aside from create an simple installer copying it to DVD.

And yet at the same time its all available for free download from their site it is not? You only pay this if you want the program on a DVD and do not wish to download everything for free and install it manually. They are the original developers of this are they not (so the money would go to the original developer organization not some 3rd party)? So what exactly is your point?

You seem confused about how free markets work. A producer can set any price it wants (high or low) and its customers decide if they are prepared to pay that price. It really is as simple as that. The producers' revenue is the key factor. Revenue is determined by selling price multiplied by number of sales. If revenue exceeds costs the producer will make a profit: if it doesn't it won't. That's where costs come into the equation. Remember it's the customers who decide the number of sales based on their judgement of the value-for-money offered and thus the producer's profitability. If a producer is planning a new product its sales/marketing department will advise what sales (and hence revenue) will be for a range of selling prices - based on what the market will bear. The producer will then have to make sure its costs will be less tran the revenue at whatever price it decides upon. If the producer is developing a small car, for example, then its selling price will be determined by the price at which its competitors are selling similar cars for. The producer has to keep its costs low enough to ensure a profit.YUou should not put words into other people's mouths - (which 'mgh' and co apparently conceive to be added value worth the $47 price tag) . I said that providing an installer added value. I never suggested what it was worth. Having downloaded the free version of FlightGear a while ago, I deleted it - the whole package was worthless to me.What I meant was very simple. If offering FlightGear with an installer is patently absurd at $47, then offering it without an installer at $49 is equally absurd.

You seem confused about how free markets work. A producer can set any price it wants (high or low) and its customers decide if they are prepared to pay that price. It really is as simple as that.

This differers from what I've said how exactly? You've looked at this solely from a simplistic point of view. All I've added to that is that its morally wrong to ridiculously overprice your products and that: small and medium sized producers have to cover their costs from production otherwise they are not going to last. Of course it is their choice if they want to commit commercial suicide, but most of them are not in a position where they can underprice and if they overprice they risk alienating large numbers of consumers. So in reality the situation is a lot more complex (especially after considering competitors and their prices) than just blindly setting any price you want for your product - this is the business' point of view.I've also said that underpricing and overpricing can be monopolistic practices. In the western world, especially in the EU, there are Institutional mechanisms guarding against monopolistic practices (recent actions by the EU pursuing legal action against Microsoft and Intel come to mind) - albeit they are not aways effective.So how is my understanding of the western-world free market confused?

What I meant was very simple. If offering FlightGear with an installer is patently absurd at $47, then offering it without an installer at $49 is equally absurd.

OK, I'll say it again - All of FlightGear is available entirely for free from their site in the form of downloads. If you want to order it on DVD from them, then you pay. You've said you used FlightGear - now did you get it for free from their site or did you order the DVD from them for $49? You got it for free:

Having downloaded the free version of FlightGear a while ago, I deleted it - the whole package was worthless to me.

Again what is your point? Do you agree with the $47 price and what the 3rd party has done in the form of presenting their product (FlightSimPro) as the commercial version of FlightGear? I sure as hell don't.

All I've added to that is that its morally wrong to ridiculously overprice your products...

Why morally wrong? A producer can ask whatever price it wants - the customers decide whether to buy at that price. There's no compulsion to buy - especially with flight simulation products which are luxury goods.

OK, I'll say it again - All of FlightGear is available entirely for free from their site in the form of downloads.If you want to order it on DVD from them, then you pay.

And if you want a self-installing version you also pay. What's the difference?

Again what is your point? Do you agree with the $47 price and what the 3rd party has done in the form of presenting their product (FlightSimPro) as the commercial version of FlightGear? I sure as hell don't.

Whether I agree (whatever that means) with the price is irrelevant. FlightGear is valueless to me so I wouldn't pay anything for it. Also, I wouldn't buy a PMDG add-on because I'm not interested in flying complex big jets - it's valueless to me but I don't claim its price is morally wrong - I have seen that argued in other threads.Incidentally, what are your moral views on PMDG still asking $79.99 for its 747-400X when BestBuy are asking $29.99?

Why morally wrong? A producer can ask whatever price it wants - the customers decide whether to buy at that price. There's no compulsion to buy - especially with flight simulation products which are luxury goods.And if you want a self-installing version you also pay. What's the difference?Whether I agree (whatever that means) with the price is irrelevant. FlightGear is valueless to me so I wouldn't pay anything for it.

You've refused to answer exactly what point you are trying to make here. You haven't answered this:Is it morally wrong (for a 3rd party) to grab an open source program, such as FlightGear and repackage it (without providing much/or any added value to it), and sell it for a high price? I believe it is. If you've extensively modified, added to and/or improved the original open source software then it would be a different matter. But in the case of FlightSimPro I think we have a moral breach (albeit maybe not a legal one) by a 3rd party who's grabbed FlightGear and simply repackaged it. You also haven't commented on the fact that you did get FlightGear yourself entirely for free, so I don't see how you of all people can comment on its 'unfair' price. FlightGear is free and open source. On the other hand there is no way to get 'FlightSimPro' in any legal way for free.

Also, I wouldn't buy a PMDG add-on because I'm not interested in flying complex big jets - it's valueless to me but I don't claim its price is morally wrong - I have seen that argued in other threads.Incidentally, what are your moral views on PMDG still asking $79.99 for its 747-400X when BestBuy are asking $29.99?

Good grief, this has nothing to do with PMDG - in case you've forgotten the issue here is FlightGear and FlightSimPro. + the product above from PMDG is not open source so its completely irrelevant to bring it up here. Attempts to drag this discussion into other irrelevant areas (and muddle up this whole issue) will get you nowhere. You seem to have some problems with PMDG and their pricing, but this is not under discussion here, if you wish you may start a seperate thread. And if you're not interested in flying complex big jets (I myself love this along with GA), then why do know and care about the PMDG 747-400X prices from PMDG themselves and BestBuy? Why bring this up at all? Its a contradiction.....

You've refused to answer exactly what point you are trying to make here. You haven't answered this:Is it morally wrong (for a 3rd party) to grab an open source program, such as FlightGear and repackage it (without providing much/or any added value to it),

First, you have no clue what they actually added to this program. So unless you do a lot more research about it you yourself are "immoral" by passing "morality" judgment on someone else. Second as was pointed out if the price is truly "immoral" it will be judged by the market place. I can open car rental company and charge $1000 a day for Ford Focus and there is nothing immoral about it, stupid perhaps but not immoral. So your harping at 'morality' is totally misplaced.

First, you have no clue what they actually added to this program. So unless you do a lot more research about it you yourself are "immoral" by passing "morality" judgment on someone else. Second as was pointed out if the price is truly "immoral" it will be judged by the market place. I can open car rental company and charge $1000 a day for Ford Focus and there is nothing immoral about it, stupid perhaps but not immoral. So your harping at 'morality' is totally misplaced.

I do not understand your anger at my posts and I am not getting involved in this. Your concept of morality is obviously different from mine. I think its wrong to hideously overprice any product (including grabbed open source software), we should aim for a society where the price must be fair to both the consumer and the producing company/entity (3rd parties getting paid for something they grabbed is wrong). But perhaps you feel this is wrong. Either way this discussion does not belong in this thread, the topic here is FlightGear and FlightSimPro.Also what research have you done to prove me wrong? All the proof of improvements to FlightGear in the form of FlightSimPro are in the installer - thats all I've seen so far. I have researched this and haven't found any evidence of other improvements at all. The only other thing to do is waste $47 buying this and I do not intend to do that.

Because they don