It's always easier blaming someone else than yourself.. I know what your saying. And for the record piracy is copyright infringement.... not theft. Stealing an aircraft would be grand theft, and is a serious felony. You go to jail no matter what. there's a world of difference there. And to do date people have only been prosecuted for uploading, not downloading anything.And really about the music business? Can you name one artist signed since 90s that actually got royalties instead of a big fat check for the album, plus maybe some backend if it goes past 1,000,000 in sales. I say this because you NEVER see any artist or even label complaining about piracy. It's always the distributors that don't like being one-up'd.

I am an recording artist and I am complaining. I even went into a record store once and found a recording that had been made of a live concert I had done being sold. They even had the gall to put my name on it.As for a big fat check-for most I have done if you call $400 big and fat then so be it. One I even paid the recording company to do and got nothing.

Thats it, unless someone addresses me, my stance on this thread is silence... I'm not dealing with this anymore, from now on I'm just gonna go Gordon Freeman on this thread...I've tried to give constructive ideas on how to fix the current situation, however it's met with nothing but ignorance and attitude from those who are the cogs in the current system. Feng and a few others have brought up some good points, however it's obvious that certain cogs in the current system don't want to try to change the situation, they just want to whine about it and not actually fix the problems that need to be fixed...It's pointless to argue with a brick wall... That I've learned in this thread....

PeterSeems to me that all you(or anyone) can do is state your position and see what happens. This is not a problem that is not going to be solved on a flight sim fourm. Not even close. I seldom side with the gogs you speak of, but calling them ignorant brick walls does not help. This should be a discussion, not an argument (your word).Bob

Well I use to do A&R, and honestly most people get standard deals, where literally the distributor says we'll get you in the stores(because we control them) if you sign over your life... here you go. Most artists these days if they've been warned in advance could careless about the money they make from the record companies. The only thing a record company can do for someone is promote them and maybe get some radio play they otherwise wouldn't as an independent. And about that signing of your life thing... I would say a good 95% of the artists careers get destroyed by the very act of signing that deal in the first place. Not only do they lose the rights to their music and future albums, they lose the rights of ever going to somebody else that might actually do a better job for them. If you sign 100 artists in one year, only 12(one priority a month) of those will actually get any promotional push/money spent on the labels behalf. Back in the old days companies would pay to have artists tour, now the artist has to take that risk, and god knows how fair TicketMaster is. Not only that but they're also footing the bill for the recording/production.So really anyone that feels guilty about stealing music shouldn't, these companies are far more territorial and far more destructive to music and peoples lives on the whole, than little johnny stealing it. Look at Itunes.. Apple gives the labels a lifeline and after two years the distributors pull a stunt where they try and DOUBLE their take. And on top of that.. they've all but got rid of any decent people and eliminated all the jobs, so if you do get promotion out of these peoples it's done by amateurs. Which is great cause now instead of actually having industry people vote on the Grammys, it's all warehouse staff, and janitorial staff who could careless and mindlessly vote for whoever their boss tells them too, or else.To tell you the truth.. the people I listen to and buy music from... they run their own show, they're still stuck with distribution deals, but they're big enough to take on the risks after being in the business for so long. Any newcomers, don't even bother.. you'd probably make more money selling FS addons.So Geoff before you blame the average joe for stealing your music.... I think it's fair to say the people who destroyed the industry are the distributors, not the people pirating music since these practices started before even napster. And they're current method of making money is solely based on telling parents that stealing music sends the wrong message to kids, so buy it for them.

You are talking about one type of recording and the people on top. What about all the other working musicians who are also involved?Here is one example of hundreds I have done-see the long list of people involved?http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/arti...,222419,00.html..and yes the pay from the session for this was about $350.. if a cd like this sells well-the people on this list might get $50 at the end of the year and a similar contribution to my pension. Do many hundreds that sell well and it adds up. But all of that is based on selling the units. I still get a little at the end of the year from this one even though it was made in 1995.The key part is they have to sell-and there are lots of "little guys" that get hurt when they are not paid for.

Yes but honestly how much do you get on the deal? When the distributor gets half and they don't do anything. How is it that fair when all they do is produce a few thousand copies every once in awhile, and the other half is shared by 50 other people. And given that's from 1995 you'd probably see more if just one of those songs was featured on a more recent 2009 compilation. The risk is much lower on their end, yet they make the lions share of profits? And ask yourself.. do you even know if it's currently in print? Sure it might still be in the stores, but they might have a newer priority they're trying to push and oops your "temporarily not available" . And then the stores keeping yours at a higher price since it's rare. Yet you don't see a cent of that higher price.The system is broke Geoff..that's all I'm saying. Of course you deserve to get paid, but they're so much working against you that maybe it is best the current system fails, and something new arises from the ashes. I think that was the point of this thread in the beginning.

Yes but honestly how much do you get on the deal? When the distributor gets half and they don't do anything. How is it that fair when all they do is produce a few thousand copies every once in awhile, and the other half is shared by 50 other people. And given that's from 1995 you'd probably see more if just one of those songs was featured on a more recent 2009 compilation. The risk is much lower on their end, yet they make the lions share of profits? And ask yourself.. do you even know if it's currently in print? Sure it might still be in the stores, but they might have a newer priority they're trying to push and oops your "temporarily not available" . And then the stores keeping yours at a higher price since it's rare. Yet you don't see a cent of that higher price.The system is broke Geoff..that's all I'm saying. Of course you deserve to get paid, but they're so much working against you that maybe it is best the current system fails, and something new arises from the ashes. I think that was the point of this thread in the beginning.

I have never debated that the system is broken. I will stay staunch however that for every copy not purchased it takes income directly from someone who earns a living doing this, and I will also stay staunch that it is a ethics issue. I also think most people don't realize what they are doing how many people are getting hurt when they pirate a cd,movie,or software. As an example-the cd I provided the link to-I purchased and sent to my sister in law for a present at xmas after it came out. She liked it so much-she made 10 copies and gave it to all her friends. I had to "educate" her on this very subject. She didn't mean to do any harm to anyone-she just wasn't aware of the ramifications as I am sure many are not.How much income do I get from this? I don't know exactly but as I stated probably the average recording is a $50 yearly residual and and a $50 contribution to my retirement fund managed by the musicians union per recording-but it is all dependent on the number of sales-some can be way more and some can be less. After 30 years of doing 100's of recordings-some that sell well and some that don't, some that are still in print, some that are not, jingles (which can be regulated better)-it all adds up to something-but is just one of the ways a working musician earns a living-of course only if the product is purchased....and it is number/sales dependent. So in short-probably as much as a Fs developer makes a year from their products. :(

Geof: I would consider you one of the lucky ones. For me it was never about the money, just the lifestyle. If you add up all the events, release parties, free music, lunches, dinners, and the steady flow of alcohol. Yeah I guess actual sales paid for all that at then end of the day :) All I know is if you don't buy these entertainment products, and you like them, you're really not just hurting the creators, but yourself in the end. I think that's the part most people forget about that if you don't pay for the current stuff there won't be any new stuff. I do buy music, I also have this habit of tracking down the sheet music for it now too, as well as concert dvds! I got one of those ears that needs the CD quality version if not better.But I think what surprises me the most about some of these young musicians is that most of them are now starting off by stealing production software...

PeterSeems to me that all you(or anyone) can do is state your position and see what happens. This is not a problem that is not going to be solved on a flight sim fourm. Not even close. I seldom side with the gogs you speak of, but calling them ignorant brick walls does not help. This should be a discussion, not an argument (your word).Bob

I apologize for what I said, it's just that eventually seeing certain posts riled me up and got me to go over the edge. I've hence edited my post on the grounds that I realize I went over the edge. I'm sorry about acting that way, however I lost my cool as certain posts tended to make me look at things on a more heated spectrum than most people would realize. Unfortunately I'm not a very good people person, and I tend to melt down after certain things set me off. This was one of those meltdowns.

I apologize for what I said, it's just that eventually seeing certain posts riled me up and got me to go over the edge. I've hence edited my post on the grounds that I realize I went over the edge. I'm sorry about acting that way, however I lost my cool as certain posts tended to make me look at things on a more heated spectrum than most people would realize. Unfortunately I'm not a very good people person, and I tend to melt down after certain things set me off. This was one of those meltdowns.

Peter I believe the written word is about one of the worst ways to communicate that there is. People talking face to face don't always understand each other( I know, I've been married three times). Things written down can easily be misunderstood. Take the phrase "I don't hate you." You and think we know what those simple words mean. But emphasize different words, as you would in real speech, and the meaning changes.1. I don't hate you(but everyone else does).B. I don't hate you(but darn close).3. I don't hate you.(but I sure hate everyone else).How are you supposed to know what I mean if I quickly type out "I don't hate you."Doesn't make any difference if you're good with people or not. I think we all need to be more careful about what we say We are not inside each other's heads. Thank goodness.Bob

Peter I believe the written word is about one of the worst ways to communicate that there is. People talking face to face don't always understand each other( I know, I've been married three times). Things written down can easily be misunderstood. Take the phrase "I don't hate you." You and think we know what those simple words mean. But emphasize different words, as you would in real speech, and the meaning changes.1. I don't hate you(but everyone else does).B. I don't hate you(but darn close).3. I don't hate you.(but I sure hate everyone else).How are you supposed to know what I mean if I quickly type out "I don't hate you."Doesn't make any difference if you're good with people or not. I think we all need to be more careful about what we say We are not inside each other's heads. Thank goodness.Bob

That is a very good point. I just have a tendency to write things out in a way which I regret later. I usually don't intend on being inflammatory, it just happens.One reason I take so long to put out reviews is this: ever since my DCS Black Shark review, I have been very very cautious about the review content. Because of this, I will debate with myself over how to phrase things, and because I don't want to be inflammatory, I will wait long durations on reviews just to make sure I don't screw up. The last time I screwed up, it was of epic proportions. I don't want to repeat that mistake again.

Piracy and stealing are in no way justifiable, however nether is greed. The developers of payware are having the same issue the movie studios had back in the early 80s. They are greedy with prices of a piece of software, so they are retaliated against by those who feel like they are being ripped off, so they feel they should rip the developers off back.

I know this is kind of an old thread but as I was reading through it, I came across something that caught my attention.If I am not misunderstanding, you are basically saying that payware developers are greedy and thus the high prices on software. On the other hand, you say that by no means you are justifying piracy/stealing. We can't say that the developers are greedy when we don't know the amount of time/effort/energy involved in making a certain software or add on.Just to clarify in one simple sentence: I am by all means against piracy. It is theft. It is wrong. It hurts both the developer and the consumers. We all gotta be careful as to how we write our posts. We don't want to come across as if we are encouraging piracy when we are really against it.Regards,

I know this is kind of an old thread but as I was reading through it, I came across something that caught my attention.If I am not misunderstanding, you are basically saying that payware developers are greedy and thus the high prices on software. On the other hand, you say that by no means you are justifying piracy/stealing. We can't say that the developers are greedy when we don't know the amount of time/effort/energy involved in making a certain software or add on.Just to clarify in one simple sentence: I am by all means against piracy. It is theft. It is wrong. It hurts both the developer and the consumers. We all gotta be careful as to how we write our posts. We don't want to come across as if we are encouraging piracy when we are really against it.Regards,

The point I'm trying to make is this, what we face right now as a community, let alone what the payware developers face, is the same exact issue that happened in the movie industry. People aren't willing to pay that much, so they pirate it. This is a view on this from a ameteur historians perspective, not on someone who is against the payware developers making a buck. When I write about these things, I tend to take a look at historical data when available, and it doesn't have to be the same exact sector of the industry ether.To clarify what I have been saying in one sentence: "While I do not support piracy, when you look at the historical data, you see a remarkable resemblance between the situation the movie industry had in the 1980s, and the situation the pay-ware developers have today."You won't solve this by selling at places like best buy, you will solve them by charging reasonable amounts for them through DLC channels, as most PC gamers now go through sources online, rather than going out to brick-and-mortar. While the idea of selling them cheaper at Best Buy is good, that is only going to get to a small amount of potential customers, because most PC Gamers have given up on stores like that, and now rely on online channels. When you want to fix the problem, it isn't just a one pronged problem, but I have seen a lot of situations where people will buy what they consider a good deal, because they want to support the developers, and 90% of the time, they will buy though channels such as Steam, not channels such as wally world.

Peter, Can you please post the historical data you have look at?Thanks,

Here's some 'historical data'...Citation X 2.0 gauge code development time: 4+ years. That's 40hr per week, 52wk per year. Based on average salary of $80,000 U.S. for a senior programmer... that's over $240,000 labor invested in the gauge code alone. Add in 3D modeler, texture artists... etc.That's a real number representing real development. Apparently there are a great deal of people who think all of this stuff is easy and takes very little time to do.