And I've made a fortune fixing their mistakes. What's your point? :(

Then they weren't first-class programmers. my point in response to byork is that it's foolish to generalise. As I said, there are first-class programmers in Asia. There are no doubt incompetent ones there too - but there are incompetent people in every country.

I just did a check of a flight sim addon (an aircraft), won't name which one because that's not that important.It was downloaded via torrents over 17,000 times. That's a quantifiable value of over $800,000 at it's asking price of ~$50.Read that again... and just think about that for a minute. Do you think that the typical aircraft addon comes even close to selling 5,000 copies?No, I won't tell you how to find the download numbers... don't ask!

If a scheme existed to make software piracy impossible, how many of those 17,000 pirates would have then actually purchased the product? My guess is that NONE to only a VERY FEW would bother to do so. So the true Value Lost is: Zero to a Very Few x $50.A merchant may see a shop lifted item as a lost sale because it has physically disappeared from inventory- hence is not available for sale to a customer. But Software remains in inventory after being "shoplifted". It is still available for any customer who has cash and the desire!Alex Reid

If a scheme existed to make software piracy impossible, how many of those 17,000 pirates would have then actually purchased the product? My guess is that NONE to only a VERY FEW would bother to do so. So the true Value Lost is: Zero to a Very Few x $50.A merchant may see a shop lifted item as a lost sale because it has physically disappeared from inventory- hence is not available for sale to a customer. But Software remains in inventory after being "shoplifted". It is still available for any customer who has cash and the desire!Alex Reid

You can't take a guess and use it as a fact. Silly concept.No one can quantify how much can be earned if there was no piracy... however, one can directly quantify physical loss due to piracy. That's shown in the numbers I posted. Had there been no piracy, not one person would have a copy of the addon they didn't have to pay for to begin with.You keep trying to state that nothing was lost... which is absurd.Taking what isn't yours to take... is wrong. Period. If you took something that isn't yours to take... someone is indeed the victim. Victims deserve compensation. Compensation is based on value. Value thus exists for stolen software, otherwise no compensation would have ever been awarded by a court.So, if you're correct... and nothing was lost... why do courts disagree with you?

If a scheme existed to make software piracy impossible, how many of those 17,000 pirates would have then actually purchased the product? My guess is that NONE to only a VERY FEW would bother to do so. So the true Value Lost is: Zero to a Very Few x $50.A merchant may see a shop lifted item as a lost sale because it has physically disappeared from inventory- hence is not available for sale to a customer. But Software remains in inventory after being "shoplifted". It is still available for any customer who has cash and the desire!Alex Reid

Alex,Let's avoid the ethical issue and play with that figure. What if only 2000 out of that 17,000 would have actually purchased? If I recall you are retired? How would you feel if your pension which might be part of your retirement income was reduced by that amount by someone just taking it....? Because as I explained above, that missing amount will be a missing amount of my pension when I retire. I'd sure like to be simming on 3 monitors like you when I retire... :(

If a scheme existed to make software piracy impossible, how many of those 17,000 pirates would have then actually purchased the product? My guess is that NONE to only a VERY FEW would bother to do so. So the true Value Lost is: Zero to a Very Few x $50.A merchant may see a shop lifted item as a lost sale because it has physically disappeared from inventory- hence is not available for sale to a customer. But Software remains in inventory after being "shoplifted". It is still available for any customer who has cash and the desire!Alex Reid

Of course there is a loss. Pirates have taken property which isn't theirs without paying for it. The real loss of revenue to developers isn't the number of pitate downloads multiplied by selling price because not all the pirates would have bought a copy. Nevertheless some would, so there is a real loss.

The reality is... if you steal a Rolls Royce, despite the fact you would never, ever have purchased one... the monetary loss is the same.You took something of value, and it's a true and complete loss.

Alex,Let's avoid the ethical issue and play with that figure. What if only 2000 out of that 17,000 would have actually purchased? If I recall you are retired? How would you feel if your pension which might be part of your retirement income was reduced by that amount by someone just taking it....? Because as I explained above, that missing amount will be a missing amount of my pension when I retire. I'd sure like to be simming on 3 monitors like you when I retire... :(

Hi Geofa- I have no quarrel whatsoever with the view that piracy of software is WRONG. I have a strict personal policy to purchase ONLY CD/DVD versions of FS software. I download nothing. (Sorry- We've even given up buying music CDs. We get the whole day filled with nonstop music from radio and cable channels. Haven't a clue what an IPod even looks like.)I do disagree with the valuation that is being placed on the lost revenue due to piracy. I would be surprised if even 200 of those 17,000 piracies would otherwise have been purchased- it's bragging rights and "something/anything for nothing" that the pirates are after.How many shoplifters would actually then purchase the product if they discovered that 'lifting it" was impossible?And I doubt that car dealers regard every stolen car as a lost sale. ------------------Triple Monitor accounting: 1- six year old 1.8 GHz computer, 1- nine year old 19"CRT, 1- three yr old 17"LCD, 1- used 17" LCD @$75. That's it! Why not go for it BEFORE you retire!!!Regards Alex Reid

Hi Geofa- I have no quarrel whatsoever with the view that piracy of software is WRONG. I have a strict personal policy to purchase ONLY CD/DVD versions of FS software. I download nothing. (Sorry- We've even given up buying music CDs. We get the whole day filled with nonstop music from radio and cable channels. Haven't a clue what an IPod even looks like.)I do disagree with the valuation that is being placed on the lost revenue due to piracy. I would be surprised if even 200 of those 17,000 piracies would otherwise have been purchased- it's bragging rights and "something/anything for nothing" that the pirates are after.How many shoplifters would actually then purchase the product if they discovered that 'lifting it" was impossible?And I doubt that car dealers regard every stolen car as a lost sale. ------------------Triple Monitor accounting: 1- six year old 1.8 GHz computer, 1- nine year old 19"CRT, 1- three yr old 17"LCD, 1- used 17" LCD @$75. That's it! Why not go for it BEFORE you retire!!!Regards Alex Reid

Well even my sister in law took from my pocket-until I pointed out to her what she was doing. I think most don't even have any knowledge of what they are doing or how they are hurting others. Seems to me if people were knowlegable about what they were actually doing the numbers would reverse and we would not be having this conversation.I am glad you are doubtful about the lost income-but then-you are not depending on it like some of us are. Here is a question for you though-would those kids who pirate music actually stop listening to it if they had to actually purchase it? Isn't that kinda the reverse of what you are saying?

Hi Geofa- I have no quarrel whatsoever with the view that piracy of software is WRONG. I have a strict personal policy to purchase ONLY CD/DVD versions of FS software. I download nothing. (Sorry- We've even given up buying music CDs. We get the whole day filled with nonstop music from radio and cable channels. Haven't a clue what an IPod even looks like.)I do disagree with the valuation that is being placed on the lost revenue due to piracy. I would be surprised if even 200 of those 17,000 piracies would otherwise have been purchased- it's bragging rights and "something/anything for nothing" that the pirates are after.How many shoplifters would actually then purchase the product if they discovered that 'lifting it" was impossible?And I doubt that car dealers regard every stolen car as a lost sale. ------------------Triple Monitor accounting: 1- six year old 1.8 GHz computer, 1- nine year old 19"CRT, 1- three yr old 17"LCD, 1- used 17" LCD @$75. That's it! Why not go for it BEFORE you retire!!!Regards Alex Reid

Those are all 100% conjecture... which you're entitled to, but you can not force them into the discussion as statement of fact.Courts disagree with your stance on valuation. Period. Example: Software Theft in CourtNo one, I repeat, no one knows how many will/won't purchase. However, it was last quantified by Microsoft at around 10%.Actually, they do. You can't sell a stolen car.

--------------------------- You can't sell a stolen car.

I doubt that if, upon reading of another auto theft, the car dealers regard that as an opportunity lost to sell a car to the thief!Isn't that what we are saying when we talk about software piracy?But I think we have beaten down this topic far enough. The thieves and freeloaders will always be with us!Alex Reid

And I've made a fortune fixing their mistakes. What's your point? :(

Certainly off topic, but about Indian programmers

Certainly off topic, but about Indian programmers

No, it wasn't a joke. Statement of fact on my part.I've spent many years correcting out-sourced software from India.

There are coders that can do that work better, faster, and for less money

The sad thing is, that while these people pirate, and steal, they don't normally realize the true implications their actions have.