Where are the parents and how did they miss teaching their kids that stealing is wrong?

They were busy hugging and feeling sorry for there rotten scumbag criminal children instead of pulling out the paddle like they should have. Okay, I'll let you take this thread back Geof - don't want to lose my medical

If parents teaching their offspring that stealing is bad was the worst that was going on then we would be not so bad off...Look around you - look at Wall street, look at any bank, look at any state owned monopoly, look at any government you can think of - show me where stealing, corruption and/or amassing obscene fortunes, is considered wrong?

Where are the parents and how did they miss teaching their kids that stealing is wrong?

But if a downloaded item of software is never really used by the culprit- other than to add to his bragging rights- has it really been stolen?The vendor's inventory has not been reduced- so it is hard to argue that he has been hurt.I would think that the vendor is only damaged if the pirate downloader makes ongoing use of the product- and hence has avoided the need to purchase it.Every day I decline to purchase (and so to USE) many products. In some cases, I may even try out a sample. But failing to purchase, even after sampling, is not theft.As a teenager some 60 years ago, music stores selling"records" had small rooms where you could listen to a recording to see if you wished to purchase.It was very common to have a "record party" there after school, with a group of kids listening to the latest crooner releases. None of us had any real intention of buying anything so the old shellac discs (no vinyl then!) were simply returned to the shopkeeper's inventory. I don't think he felt that we had stolen anything- other than wasting a bit of his time. Any parents who were aware, didn't perceive this as theft- just a time waster- as in: "Idle hands are the work of the devil!".Some serious research is needed to determine the percentage of pirates who actually do make ongoing use of their downloads. My guess is that it is surprisingly low.Alex Reid

But if a downloaded item of software is never really used by the culprit- other than to add to his bragging rights- has it really been stolen?The vendor's inventory has not been reduced- so it is hard to argue that he has been hurt.I would think that the vendor is only damaged if the pirate downloader makes ongoing use of the product- and hence has avoided the need to purchase it.Every day I decline to purchase (and so to USE) many products. In some cases, I may even try out a sample. But failing to purchase, even after sampling, is not theft.As a teenager some 60 years ago, music stores selling"records" had small rooms where you could listen to a recording to see if you wished to purchase.It was very common to have a "record party" there after school, with a group of kids listening to the latest crooner releases. None of us had any real intention of buying anything so the old shellac discs (no vinyl then!) were simply returned to the shopkeeper's inventory. I don't think he felt that we had stolen anything- other than wasting a bit of his time. Any parents who were aware, didn't perceive this as theft- just a time waster- as in: "Idle hands are the work of the devil!".Some serious research is needed to determine the percentage of pirates who actually do make ongoing use of their downloads. My guess is that it is surprisingly low.Alex Reid

So if a concert by a great artist costs $40 for a ticket to hear-and if you can sneak in and listen to the whole thing thru the door without having to buy a ticket-that is ok in your book-because you wouldn't have bought a ticket anyway?

As individuals we can post in threads such as this and debate with each other until we are blue in the face. I think it is up to the industry on the whole that has to deal with this issue starting with Microsoft as I am sure all their products including the flight sim genre have and will continue to be illegally shared. Police units have been created to deal with counterfeit consumer goods, oh yeah, and money; so why has industry not pressed for more protection via their governments and demand that individuals be dealt stringent penalties for providing or making it possible for individuals to share programs illegally? I read that Mathijs Kok and his associates from Aerosoft spend the odd Friday night tracking people down on torrent sites and dealing with them in their own way because there simply isn't enough legislation out there to protect them.I could imagine however that it would be costly to prosecute an individual and perhaps impossible at this time as person A who lives in province/state B purchases a program developed in country C... not an easy endeavor to prosecute I would imagine.With all the great minds out there I am a little surprised there has not been any development in protecting ones work. A trial version of an addon can only be unlocked after purchasing a key/license so, is there no full-proof method of ensuring that the license will not be compromised? Can a method be devised to prevent a program to be uploaded in the first place?Failing that IMO I think it will come down to us accepting the fact that in order to play/simulate it will require a live connection and I know that many individuals are against that for whatever reason. I personally have no problem with that as long as I know my privacy will be ensured. I wonder what the success rate Rise of Flight torrents are, does that not require a connection to the internet to play?Regards,Robert

But if a downloaded item of software is never really used by the culprit- other than to add to his bragging rights- has it really been stolen?The vendor's inventory has not been reduced- so it is hard to argue that he has been hurt.I would think that the vendor is only damaged if the pirate downloader makes ongoing use of the product- and hence has avoided the need to purchase it.Every day I decline to purchase (and so to USE) many products. In some cases, I may even try out a sample. But failing to purchase, even after sampling, is not theft.As a teenager some 60 years ago, music stores selling"records" had small rooms where you could listen to a recording to see if you wished to purchase.It was very common to have a "record party" there after school, with a group of kids listening to the latest crooner releases. None of us had any real intention of buying anything so the old shellac discs (no vinyl then!) were simply returned to the shopkeeper's inventory. I don't think he felt that we had stolen anything- other than wasting a bit of his time. Any parents who were aware, didn't perceive this as theft- just a time waster- as in: "Idle hands are the work of the devil!".Some serious research is needed to determine the percentage of pirates who actually do make ongoing use of their downloads. My guess is that it is surprisingly low.Alex Reid

Seems to me that downloading a sample to evaluate is a far cry from hacking or downloading something never intending to pay for it.I realize that this gets back to the question of weather softwear is a physical thing or not, but if I steal a book and never read it, it's still theft.Bob

But if a downloaded item of software is never really used by the culprit- other than to add to his bragging rights- has it really been stolen?The vendor's inventory has not been reduced- so it is hard to argue that he has been hurt.I would think that the vendor is only damaged if the pirate downloader makes ongoing use of the product- and hence has avoided the need to purchase it.Every day I decline to purchase (and so to USE) many products. In some cases, I may even try out a sample. But failing to purchase, even after sampling, is not theft.As a teenager some 60 years ago, music stores selling"records" had small rooms where you could listen to a recording to see if you wished to purchase.It was very common to have a "record party" there after school, with a group of kids listening to the latest crooner releases. None of us had any real intention of buying anything so the old shellac discs (no vinyl then!) were simply returned to the shopkeeper's inventory. I don't think he felt that we had stolen anything- other than wasting a bit of his time. Any parents who were aware, didn't perceive this as theft- just a time waster- as in: "Idle hands are the work of the devil!".Some serious research is needed to determine the percentage of pirates who actually do make ongoing use of their downloads. My guess is that it is surprisingly low.Alex Reid

Alex - Try walking into "The Body Shop" and inform them that you will be taking a sampoo bottle sample from the store and see what they say. Just because they have labeled the bottle as a sample it still cost them money to produce the bottle and ship it to the store and therefor is lost revenue. That bottle of shampoo that you normally would purchase for $15 would have cost less than half that amount but alas, due to theft, replacement cost's for products are what drive the prices up.Look at the cost of insurance whether it be for your house, car or health, why are the cost's so high? People scamming the system... we have and always will pay for people that make money off our backs. It can be different in this business though.Best,Robert

The majority of the people who download this stuff from the pirate bay or any other warez site are simply doing it because they cannot help themselves. What they download is not important, it could be the crappiest scenery or aircraft and it would make no difference really - must download, must download, must download... ahhhhhhhhh. Got it, installed it, now must have the next one...

Although I am totally against piracy and I also call it theft, I must agree here.I think 90% of the people downloading addons via P2P are kids and young people.Of course what they do is bad and I will always tell them so if I find out what they do.But I believe it might not be such a loss for the manufacturer like some suggest.The reason being if these kids could not get the addon illegally, they would not buy it anyway.So a pirate simmer is usually NOT a potential customer. I am a legal customer and don't give a sh.. about any payware addons being available on 'bad servers' or not.When I want a product I visit an on-line shop and buy it.

So if a concert by a great artist costs $40 for a ticket to hear-and if you can sneak in and listen to the whole thing thru the door without having to buy a ticket-that is ok in your book-because you wouldn't have bought a ticket anyway?

Geofa- you are misinterpreting me. I have a high regard for artists- musical, artistic & technical. Stealing IS WRONG. Sneaking in is WRONG. But if I am walking by the concert hall and hear the music wafting out- I probably will stop to listen- even though I have no plans to buy a ticket. So I continue to get my Pavarotti via cable channels, radio, PBS and some older CDs purchased or gifted a few years ago. I assume Mrs Pavarotti continues to receive residuals from those sources.Alex Reid

Geofa- you are misinterpreting me. I have a high regard for artists- musical, artistic & technical. Stealing IS WRONG. Sneaking in is WRONG. But if I am walking by the concert hall and hear the music wafting out- I probably will stop to listen- even though I have no plans to buy a ticket. So I continue to get my Pavarotti via cable channels, radio, PBS and some older CDs purchased or gifted a few years ago. I assume Mrs Pavarotti continues to receive residuals from those sources.Alex Reid

..if and only if they are purchased..

Seems to me that downloading a sample to evaluate is a far cry from hacking or downloading something never intending to pay for it.I realize that this gets back to the question of weather softwear is a physical thing or not, but if I steal a book and never read it, it's still theft.Bob

Bob- Do you never wander through COSTCO munching on all the food samples they are offering- without the slightest intention of buying any of those products?---------------When you steal a book, you have reduced the vendor's inventory- something, for which he has paid and expects to be repaid by a customer. A stolen book can never be used to recoup the vendor's investment. It is real money out of his pocket.But software online means unlimited inventory availability and each "copy" costs nothing. Stolen software via download costs the vendor nothing- OTHER THAN the loss of an OPPORTUNITY for revenue. The real question is- Would the downloader have actually shelled out money if that was a prerequirement for downloading?? ---------------What we don't know is A: whether those pirated copies were taken for conscious use- that's theft. OR B: if they were downloaded for curiosity/ evaluation purposes and then rejected as not of interest to the downloader. OR C: simply downloaded as evidence of the pirate's cleverness, with no intention to really use it.Only the first case- A, represents a loss to the vendor. B & C are the equivalent of shoppers taking home elaborate product brochures, samples and specifications, but never purchasing the product.Alex Reid

Alex, Taking a sample without the retailer's permission...is not something we'd let a child do.They

..if and only if they are purchased..

Stealing a Rolls Royce car has been raised previously as an analogy.If a Rolls Royce is stolen then the insurers will pay out compensation to ther owner to ensure that the owner is is in the same situation as the it was before the theft by enabling the owner to replace the Rolls Royce.If an add-on developer had 17,000 of his own CDs stolen from its own warehouse with a retail value of $50 (typical figures as suggested in previous posts) then the insurers would not pay out $850,000. Rather they only would pay for the cost of re-burning the CDs - say $17,000. This would put the developer in the same position it was in before the theft, with its bank account unchanged and 17,000 CDs in its warehouse. Otherwise the developer could have an additional sum of $833,000 in its bank together with 17,000 CDs, and so would be better off than before the theft.If an add-on developer had 17,000 copies pirated the insurers wouldn't pay anything on the same reasoning.If the add-on developers believe otherwise, then they can, of course, insure themselves and suffer no losses.

Alex,Walk into your local store tomorrow and swipe a package of steak and walk out the front door. When confronted please tell the local law enforcement that you are just sampling the steak or that you are stealing just for the fun of it. When you get out of jail, please let us know how things went.Each downloaded piece of software does represent inventory, not in the subtractive sense against a fixed inventory, but in the loss of the additive sense toward a sales figure. No, I don't suggest that every pirated copy would result in a legitimate sale because we know that is not true.

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