A very interesting take on piracy...

[bobbyjack 61]

I HATED steam when it first came out, but the current version of it is awesome! I buy everything off of steam now. It's not what you think. Steam allows you to buy a game and start playing as soon as finish downloading. It also keeps all the games updated w/ the latest patch, etc. The entire system is very efficient. Plus, you can have Steam backup all the files to your harddrive, so you don't ever need to re-download. The best part is that games you bought on steam are forever your's. You don't need to keep CDs around. Just login and retrieve anything you want, and as many times as you want.Steam is the start of how a lot of studios will eventually go. It's the right business model for digital media.I don't understand why people get so worked up about server based stuff. Most of you guys watch TV right? do you guys own the shows? No. But you can record them and watch it as many times as you want right? The "i don't own" it part never comes into play when it comes to Television shows. In fact, as a consumer, you will benefit.The same can be applied to games. For example, instead of buying one game, a "smart" company will allow you to play all their games. Take Microsoft for example. Maybe you sign up for a 29.95$/month "Live account." But now you have access to EVERY game MS makes. Play them anytime you want and try out new products. This benefits the publisher since it can expose all their titles to the consumer, and for the consumer, they are paying a much lower rate for games. The math makes sense. Anyways, this system doesn't exist yet in the US (only a few studios are doing it), but it is behind all the multi-billion dollar studios in Asia....they are way ahead of the curve when it comes to this business model....just read interviews by CEOs of EA, Activision, etc...and they all agree it is the future of games....and they are studying Asian game studios like crazy. -feng

I repeat ARGHDon't need to spend $30 a month to not play a bunch of brainless games. Don't want to have to be online to not do so. I use my computers to do real work. I do FS for fun. Don't have time to watch TV, either. I do watch movies on my TV, though.Bob

[Geofa 108]

I repeat ARGHDon't need to spend $30 a month to not play a bunch of brainless games. Don't want to have to be online to not do so. I use my computers to do real work. I do FS for fun. Don't have time to watch TV, either. I do watch movies on my TV, though.Bob

Bob-with you on Tv-never watch it. Do watch movies-unless I see trash like tonight-and it gets turned off.

[Peter Clemenko 0]

I use steam and other methods of digital distro sometimes, however I prefer a boxed copy. Personally I think that everyone should be a bit more open to server side stuff, however still, I have personal issues with it. I don't trust someone having a server which I have to connect to to play. If something happens, I'm screwed as a customer, and I'm out a bunch of money and can't play my games I bought. Furthermore, valve has canceled steam accounts should someone challenge a charge on their credit card. While normally I couldn't see doing something like that, if the game is borked beyond belief, and unplayable, and they won't give me a refund, I have a tendency to want to get my money back.

[Guest FengZ]

I repeat ARGHDon't need to spend $30 a month to not play a bunch of brainless games. Don't want to have to be online to not do so. I use my computers to do real work. I do FS for fun. Don't have time to watch TV, either. I do watch movies on my TV, though.Bob

exactly and i agree with you.but studios like Bioware, EA, Blizzard, etc. are not targeting you. They are going after the 17-35yr olds w/ expendable cash and time. Why was the ACE studio closed? Business models like Flightsims are dangerous because the audience base is so tiny. With so many "cooler" games out there to distract the average consumer, flightsim games tend to suffer. MS closed it most likely due to small margins (if they made margins at all). I'm sure the next version of the "flightsim" game out of that new studio will be server based and more casual. In the future, you're gonna have to look at the private sector for "niche" flightsim products (i think Aerosoft is making one?). Bigger studios like Microsoft aren't interested in small marginal returns for their investments. Like or not, studios need cash to survive. In a perfect utopian world, sure, everyone is doing it for the "love" of it and don't care for profits. But in the real world of share prices, quarterly results, etc....business models which can bring in the most cash wins.Server based software will be the next thing. It'll probably take 10+ years for people to get used to the concept. Google is already exploring a completely server based operating system.Again, they are not after you guys. They are targeting a completely different audience base and to combat piracy to a certain extend (you can still pirate server based games by stealing the entire server, but these tend to fail since nobody wants to play on pirated servers full of cheaters).btw, i'm not just speaking bull-crap. I own a game studio with 50+ employees and a design school. So i've been on both sides of the wall...-feng

[Guest FengZ]

my case in point about casual gaming vs. niche markets (aka flightsim):This interview was just posted on Gamasutra about that new studio setup to develop a "flight sim"QUOTE BELOW:Selby sees an opportunity to "step back and do a reset of what sims could be about." The genre has traditionally focused on the same elements; vehicles, for example. "We thought there's a lot more you could really do with this," says Selby.The hardcore simulation audience is "a very loyal, viable entity for us to pursue," he says. "But I think there are some things we can build into the sim titles to give them more of a broad appeal."For example, Flight Simulator pleased its hardcore fanbase with its detailed renditions of the nuances and details of flying. "That's all still valid," says Selby. "But what's missing is... if you start thinking about what you could do around those single-player experiences that do simulate some aspect of a life or a location, suddenly you start to see a lot more opportunities."Flood says that traditional sims have been somewhat "intimidating" to those outside of the genre's fans, and Selby says that simplicity is definitely now a design goal for the team."We want stuff to be simple enough that my mom can use it," he says -- and yet it's important to offer the opportunity for a player to grow into the high level of detail traditional sim fans have always desired. "We still want to give the ability to grow into that level of caring, but not eclipse any gameplay opportunities that may exist downstream from there... those complexities can't be a barrier to [other players] enjoying the experience."END QUOTE.they are after the bigger market, which equals to bigger sales and pleases their investors. I'm looking forward to their products...sounds fun. Sounds like Sim-Flight.-feng

[Sharrow 0]

This topic is finally getting somewhere! Who would have thought...A quick thank you to the folks who have explained all this much more eloquently than I could have.

[mgh 89]

It is reported today that Microsoft has cut-off many users from Xbox Live because it has determined they have modified their consoles to play pirated games. Upto 600,000 users are said to have been cut-off.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8354166.stmEDITThe same site reports that a conviction for selling modification chps has been upheld on appeal.More details here:http://www.lawreports.co.uk/WLRD/2009/CACrim/R_v_Gilham.html

[bobbyjack 61]

my case in point about casual gaming vs. niche markets (aka flightsim):This interview was just posted on Gamasutra about that new studio setup to develop a "flight sim"QUOTE BELOW:Selby sees an opportunity to "step back and do a reset of what sims could be about." The genre has traditionally focused on the same elements; vehicles, for example. "We thought there's a lot more you could really do with this," says Selby.The hardcore simulation audience is "a very loyal, viable entity for us to pursue," he says. "But I think there are some things we can build into the sim titles to give them more of a broad appeal."For example, Flight Simulator pleased its hardcore fanbase with its detailed renditions of the nuances and details of flying. "That's all still valid," says Selby. "But what's missing is... if you start thinking about what you could do around those single-player experiences that do simulate some aspect of a life or a location, suddenly you start to see a lot more opportunities."Flood says that traditional sims have been somewhat "intimidating" to those outside of the genre's fans, and Selby says that simplicity is definitely now a design goal for the team."We want stuff to be simple enough that my mom can use it," he says -- and yet it's important to offer the opportunity for a player to grow into the high level of detail traditional sim fans have always desired. "We still want to give the ability to grow into that level of caring, but not eclipse any gameplay opportunities that may exist downstream from there... those complexities can't be a barrier to [other players] enjoying the experience."END QUOTE.they are after the bigger market, which equals to bigger sales and pleases their investors. I'm looking forward to their products...sounds fun. Sounds like Sim-Flight.-feng

Hmmmm...What I think is "intimidating" is shooter games where you have to spend a lot of time setting everything up, then there is a steep learning curve to get around in the game. Of course, I can do that. I learn new software all the time. But in flight sim all you do is hit a button and you are flying. Mom can already do that. Though she doesn't want to. Or play a shoot'm up. Sounds like "dumbed down" software to me.I think sever based software is "a" way to go,(I have no doubt that I will use some) but not "the" way.When I had my P4 I had to disconnect from the internet, and shut down extra stuff to run FS. With my present rig, it doesn't matter what is running. Sure, in ten years when we are running ten cores @ 8Ghz, staying hooked up won't be a problem. Except that then there will be software to stress that hardware. That will be cool. I'm looking forward to that software. But I still want my own copy to do with as I want(within the eula). Don't want to have to depend on someone else. It has nothing to do with my being "old". It has everything to do with personal choice. I like deciding things for myself. If sever dased becomes the only way to go, than so be it. However...Bob

[mgh 89]

my case in point about casual gaming vs. niche markets (aka flightsim):This interview was just posted on Gamasutra about that new studio setup to develop a "flight sim"QUOTE BELOW:Selby sees an opportunity to "step back and do a reset of what sims could be about." The genre has traditionally focused on the same elements; vehicles, for example. "We thought there's a lot more you could really do with this," says Selby.The hardcore simulation audience is "a very loyal, viable entity for us to pursue," he says. "But I think there are some things we can build into the sim titles to give them more of a broad appeal."For example, Flight Simulator pleased its hardcore fanbase with its detailed renditions of the nuances and details of flying. "That's all still valid," says Selby. "But what's missing is... if you start thinking about what you could do around those single-player experiences that do simulate some aspect of a life or a location, suddenly you start to see a lot more opportunities."Flood says that traditional sims have been somewhat "intimidating" to those outside of the genre's fans, and Selby says that simplicity is definitely now a design goal for the team."We want stuff to be simple enough that my mom can use it," he says -- and yet it's important to offer the opportunity for a player to grow into the high level of detail traditional sim fans have always desired. "We still want to give the ability to grow into that level of caring, but not eclipse any gameplay opportunities that may exist downstream from there... those complexities can't be a barrier to [other players] enjoying the experience."END QUOTE.they are after the bigger market, which equals to bigger sales and pleases their investors. I'm looking forward to their products...sounds fun. Sounds like Sim-Flight.-feng

Is this in the right thread? It doesn't seem to be related to piracy.

[Peter Clemenko 0]

It is reported today that Microsoft has cut-off many users from Xbox Live because it has determined they have modified their consoles to play pirated games. Upto 600,000 users are said to have been cut-off.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8354166.stmEDITThe same site reports that a conviction for selling modification chps has been upheld on appeal.More details here:http://www.lawreports.co.uk/WLRD/2009/CACrim/R_v_Gilham.html

I Don't really think that mod chips should be illegal on one ground, because of the method of DVD encoding changing between regions, if you were to play an import game or movie, it might not work without the mod chip. That has nothing to do with piracy, it's strictly that the companies don't like anything being modified on the console at all. Fact is, if I were to buy say... the Japanese version of Metal Gear Solid 4, and try to play it on a US bought PS3, to my knowledge I would not be able to do that due to disc encoding regions. It's the same story with DVD movies, especially anime, where the viewer might buy the Japanese version strictly because they have a tendency to censor parts out of the English version, a major example of this would be the anime series Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex which takes up to years to be released in english, even Pokemon had at least 1 episode removed from the American airing because the bad guys decided to cross dress IIRC. Mod chips aren't strictly used for piracy or cheating, they may just be used for using discs that are usually not supported by your regions encoding (I still hate multiple region encoding methods in the first place).

[mgh 89]

I Don't really think that mod chips should be illegal ...

However they are illegal in many jurisdictions as a result of countries signing-up to the World Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO) Copyright Treaty. The EU is a signatory as is the USA and many other countries. This is one of the ways copyright protrection may be moving in the future.

[dmaher 0]

And everything i've worked on ends up on TPB on the day of release. This NEVER have bugged me because if the product is good, then it'll sell. The paying public is much bigger than the people who pirate. I've never worked on a project where the exec. producer says "would our game/film fail because of piracy?" We never even think about it.

But, clearly execs are thinking about it. Serve-side gaming and data discrimination are technologies that are for the most part designed to combat piracy. And these are both pills with major down sides for law abiding users. Although, I am looking forward to the former (I don

[Peter Clemenko 0]

However they are illegal in many jurisdictions as a result of countries signing-up to the World Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO) Copyright Treaty. The EU is a signatory as is the USA and many other countries. This is one of the ways copyright protrection may be moving in the future.

I said should... not are, I'm well aware their illegal, even though it is kind of stupid considering the only way to really run a disc thats from outside your encoding zone on a console that I know of is to mod it.

But, clearly execs are thinking about it. Serve-side gaming and data discrimination are technologies that are for the most part designed to combat piracy. And these are both pills with major down sides for law abiding users. Although, I am looking forward to the former (I don

[Guest FengZ]

I said should... not are, I'm well aware their illegal, even though it is kind of stupid considering the only way to really run a disc thats from outside your encoding zone on a console that I know of is to mod it.I personally believe this, if FSX were to be put on steam (yeah right) and the addons were made available through steam, at a more reasonable price than they are now, sales would shoot up. It's estimated that ArmA 2, a very much more niche game than something like COD MW2, had its sales to be 3-4 x what they were for ArmA 1 because of Steam.

I totally agree with you. So many games are "more accessible" when they are on Steam. I buy at least 1 game a week from there (in fact, i just bought Need for Speed Underground for $9.99 about a hour ago...heard it wasn't that good, but for 10bux, it's worth a look). The "niche" markets can also use this approach. Imagine if Flight1 had a system like Steam. All Add-ons, etc are on there, and most sell for 5$-10$ max. So a user first buys FSX for 30-35$, then sees all these cool planes and airports for only 5$....the sales will likely be more than double....and once you buy it, you own it forever. And just like Steam, the community can exist on the same platform - reviews, comments, etc. This type of business mode is the way to go...-feng

[Guest FengZ]

Since we are talking about piracy, here are some random info which some of you developers might think about using (the information below are from the "bigger games" i've worked on)- Ever wonder how games end up TBP so fast? Well, we (as in game developers) do as well. What we've been doing for a long time is to insert special serial numbers into the games. These serials are not tied to any copy-protection code, nor are they active. They are commented out codes which only a developer know how to locate. Thus, the coders/hackers writing the cracks have no clue where these are and always leave them in. Anyways, each serial can contain a ton of info:- Gold Master serial- Game version- Game location (as in which area this particular copy ended up in....America? Europe? Etc)- And even store branch Once the Illegal copy hits TPB, we download the copy ourselves. Then we de-compile the game and find the serial. Now we know exactly which copy of the game was stolen. We can tell which region it was from, and even which store it was sold at. Even if they stole the "gold-master DVD" we can track which factory it came from and when it was stamped. And in the case of "beta" leaks, we can track down the exact beta tester who leaked it (because during beta stage, we secretly assign an unique serial to every tester). So anyways, this only gives us info but not a solution. However, it does help to see the "flow" of illegal software as it makes its way down the pipe. We use this info to track when a game is most likely stolen before it hits the shelves...and take measures to beef up security. However, most pirates use the "Robinhood" approach. Basically, they spend their money to buy a legal copy, then crack it, and share it for free to the community. In this case, we can't do much to stop it. However, building a good product and support will help "convert" some pirates to legal users.I have a bunch of ideas for flight-sim developers to track illegal software. But i shouldn't write them here...since the pirates will see'em. :( Pirating will always exist. Until someone comes up with some DNA-type of serial numbering or something, it won't stop (even with DNA i'm sure someone will find a way to crack it). The best way is not to waste millions on developing anti-piracy stuff like StarForce, but instead use that money to make the product great and support the community of users.-feng