A very interesting take on piracy...

[Guest Mower]

Piracy debates here are futile since the mods hold a very definate outlook on the affair and will delete or ban those who openly contadict it (that I know first hand).Such debates are better held on more liberal boards IMHO.Carry on.

[Peter Clemenko 0]

On a side note, just to show a little more about this kind of stuff....http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/18/174207Valve is one of the biggest names in PC gaming, and they have a very big user base with a lot of happy customers. Why they are happy is simple, most of the time, Valve will do things for the customers like provide free DLC to add to the product. A perfect example is Team fortress 2 and their stream of free DLC adding new weapons, achievements, and maps to the game. If you provide your customers with value, people will buy it. If you provide your customers with a good price on this stuff, they will buy it, if you advertise it properly, they will buy it. I can guarantee you that most people who first go to piracy sites looking for this kind of stuff, have never heard of these developers. They then keep going back because they can't justify the price of these add-ons.Valve is a very very successful company. I would personally look in to modeling a similar business model to them rather than just taking your current paths. Even something as simple as adding free high quality repaints and things like re skinned cockpits could go toward the good will of the customer. The fact is, if you just go off ranting about piracy, and you don't analyse why people do it, people will just continue to do it. If you actually figure out why people do it, and remove those reasons, more people will buy it.

[Geofa 108]

Piracy debates here are futile since the mods hold a very definate outlook on the affair and will delete or ban those who openly contadict it (that I know first hand).Such debates are better held on more liberal boards IMHO.Carry on.

For someone who continually trashes this board you sure hang out here a lot.Suggest you might want to hang out on a more "liberal" board yourself if you find such distaste at the way this board is run.

[Guest Mower]

Trashes? Distateful?Oh my.Hardly so.There is plenty to like about this board. Very informative, great communty.However, let's be intellectually honest about its limitations, based largely IMHO upon AVSIM's commercial relationships with paying advertisers etc.I see no need to really explore your remarks beyond that however.

[Geofa 108]

Trashes? Distateful?Oh my.Hardly so.There is plenty to like about this board. Very informative, great communty.However, let's be intellectually honest about its limitations, based largely IMHO upon AVSIM's commercial relationships with paying advertisers etc.I see no need to really explore your remarks beyond that however.

No-I would hope you would have no need to explore and get the message-but you never seem to....and frankly none of us who volunteer on this board have much need to listen to your baseless and insulting accusations.

[HUSSAR 258]

No-I would hope you would have no need to explore and get the message-but you never seem to....and frankly none of us who volunteer on this board have much need to listen to your baseless and insulting accusations.

Geof - If he is such a pain in the you know what why don't you just ban him? I agree, there are many post's in which he has participated in a negative and argumentative way. AVSIM staff have to make a decision.

[Peter Clemenko 0]

Geof - If he is such a pain in the you know what why don't you just ban him? I agree, there are many post's in which he has participated in a negative and argumentative way. AVSIM staff have to make a decision.

Did you see his group?

[bobbyjack 61]

Here's what bothers me...Some people who disagree come on and think it is OK to say whatever they want. They are rude and insulting. They question motives, and are usually wrong. And when they get called on it, they cry FOUL. As I see it, the only place you can say whatever you want is when you are by youself. The rest of the time you must behave yourself.It is possible to disagree and be intelligent about. People are interested in discusion, not ranting.Laugh if you will. If you are on this fourm, you are in my house. I show rude people the door.Bob

[rightseater 0]

Here's what bothers me...Some people who disagree come on and think it is OK to say whatever they want. They are rude and insulting. They question motives, and are usually wrong. And when they get called on it, they cry FOUL. As I see it, the only place you can say whatever you want is when you are by youself. The rest of the time you must behave yourself.It is possible to disagree and be intelligent about. People are interested in discusion, not ranting.Laugh if you will. If you are on this fourm, you are in my house. I show rude people the door.Bob

As I just pointed out in another thread, you must also keep in mind that these members are not cautioned or banned for single actions in most cases. Members don't get to see the countless posts hidden or deleted, and in most cases members are not banned until they have frequently and intentionally violated the terms of use. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, AVSIM does not restrict dissent, and in fact encourages an array of opinions. Personal attacks and rude behavior are not a necessary part of debate.

[N2056 33]

I honestly am baffled at how this topic can endlessly be kicked around. If I were to go into a store and walk out the door with something I did not pay for it is considered theft.Going to one of those sites to download a product that you are supposed to pay for is no different.Is it really that hard to understand?I'm curious to know how many of you have lost money on a product that was pirated.

[Peter Clemenko 0]

I honestly am baffled at how this topic can endlessly be kicked around. If I were to go into a store and walk out the door with something I did not pay for it is considered theft.Going to one of those sites to download a product that you are supposed to pay for is no different.Is it really that hard to understand?I'm curious to know how many of you have lost money on a product that was pirated.

While I agree about it being theft, the idea is to prevent theft by A. using clever methods to convince people to buy the products rather than stealing.B. using methods of encouraging buying the product over pirating it. Face it, you can't stop piracy completely, however you can cut the losses by giving people reason to WANT to buy the product in the first place. That can come in the form of extras like free DLC extras such as missions, liveries, or other things, or possibly the form of just better prices. The fact is, most people can't see spending this much money on a product that's an addon, even less can see spending this much money on what is pretty much just a converted over aircraft from the previous version with a few extras thrown in.C. people need to remember, you treat your customers with respect, you don't auto assume their pirates. I have actually had friends of mine buy products from certain payware companies, and when they tried to get tech support for the product, they were accused of pirating it, when they legitimately bought it. Treating your paying customers like criminals really scares people off, and there are people out there that will pirate just because of being treated that way when they try to act legitimately and actually buy it.D. understand that a demo will help sell a product if it's good. I have seen people post on other forums (and not pirate ones, but general legit community forums, INCLUDING STEAM'S) that they will torrent a product to try it out to see if it's worth buying, if it is, they will buy it, if not they delete it from the hard drive. The fact is, a demo, even a time limited one, can help convince people to buy the product.E. Understand that people will pirate it period, you can't stop it, you can only convince people who normally are legit to stay legit by giving them incentive. If all you do is re-hash last years product, and make a few changes, no one is really going to be willing to buy it without gripe. If you treat your customers like crap, they won't support you. If you overcharge, people won't be able to justify the price. If you don't really get the news of the product out there, people won't know. And for the love of god, give a demo, it can be a major decision maker in selling a product for most people.

[N2056 33]

While I agree about it being theft, the idea is to prevent theft by A. using clever methods to convince people to buy the products rather than stealing.B. using methods of encouraging buying the product over pirating it. Face it, you can't stop piracy completely, however you can cut the losses by giving people reason to WANT to buy the product in the first place. That can come in the form of extras like free DLC extras such as missions, liveries, or other things, or possibly the form of just better prices. The fact is, most people can't see spending this much money on a product that's an addon, even less can see spending this much money on what is pretty much just a converted over aircraft from the previous version with a few extras thrown in.C. people need to remember, you treat your customers with respect, you don't auto assume their pirates. I have actually had friends of mine buy products from certain payware companies, and when they tried to get tech support for the product, they were accused of pirating it, when they legitimately bought it. Treating your paying customers like criminals really scares people off, and there are people out there that will pirate just because of being treated that way when they try to act legitimately and actually buy it.D. understand that a demo will help sell a product if it's good. I have seen people post on other forums (and not pirate ones, but general legit community forums, INCLUDING STEAM'S) that they will torrent a product to try it out to see if it's worth buying, if it is, they will buy it, if not they delete it from the hard drive. The fact is, a demo, even a time limited one, can help convince people to buy the product.E. Understand that people will pirate it period, you can't stop it, you can only convince people who normally are legit to stay legit by giving them incentive. If all you do is re-hash last years product, and make a few changes, no one is really going to be willing to buy it without gripe. If you treat your customers like crap, they won't support you. If you overcharge, people won't be able to justify the price. If you don't really get the news of the product out there, people won't know. And for the love of god, give a demo, it can be a major decision maker in selling a product for most people.

Gee, that's a lot of reply for the basic premise I made.Considering the fact that you probably have no idea where I come from in the developer world, or what I have worked on... you assume a lot.It really doesn't matter though, as I have gone full circle in the hobby, and I no longer have any interest in trying to make money doing this. Between getting ripped off and dealing with the other issues involved with creating & selling a product it is just not worth the effort.

[Peter Clemenko 0]

Gee, that's a lot of reply for the basic premise I made.Considering the fact that you probably have no idea where I come from in the developer world, or what I have worked on... you assume a lot.It really doesn't matter though, as I have gone full circle in the hobby, and I no longer have any interest in trying to make money doing this. Between getting ripped off and dealing with the other issues involved with creating & selling a product it is just not worth the effort.

N2056, I wasn't trying to offend, I was just trying to clarify, as it seemed to me that you were only focused on one thing, you didn't appear to show any interest at all in what was being said, it just looked like the standard "Piracy is theft" argument, with no additional substance to it. That to me looked like just ignoring the thread's subject and just saying it like the standard bandwagon approach. I'm sorry I misinterpreted you, however I tend to try to point that stuff out if it seems to me like someone is just ignoring the facts about what is actually being said and not even really bothering to make actual comments on what's being said in the process. To me stuff like that is called "willful ignorance" which is NOT a good thing. I have a tendency to try to point things out when I suspect willful ignorance. I'm sorry I misanalysed what you were saying, however it looked to me very much like just the standard bandwagon stuff and not actual intellectual conversation.

[N2056 33]

Peter, I very much appreciate your reply.Frankly, my thoughts on the subject sadly do tend to be riding on the 'bandwagon'. I see no gray area in the topic, and as I stated in my last post I found my solution to the problem. For me it was not hard as I do have a good day job. I feel sorry for the guys that are trying to make a living doing this!Regards,Robert

[Peter Clemenko 0]

Peter, I very much appreciate your reply.Frankly, my thoughts on the subject sadly do tend to be riding on the 'bandwagon'. I see no gray area in the topic, and as I stated in my last post I found my solution to the problem. For me it was not hard as I do have a good day job. I feel sorry for the guys that are trying to make a living doing this!Regards,Robert

While I agree there is no gray area up to a point, I also agree that developers should take steps to prevent these supposed gray areas from existing in the first place. The fact is, that you and I may not believe in a gray area in this, however others do, and that is what contributes in part to piracy in my view. While I respect the beliefs of everyone here, I do not believe it should be a matter of just blasting the pirates and being done with it. I tend to take more of an analytical approach myself. I myself have this weird thing where I try to figure out why things are the way they are, and try to solve the problems, rather than just complaining about it and not trying to take steps to prevent the problem from continuing to exist. My personal belief is that if you want to complain about something, you should be willing to figure out a true solution, and you better have a solution as well. DRM in my opinon is flawed in that it just angers legit customers. Pirates have been able to crack DRM pre launch, as was perfectly illustrated by SPORE. If someone wants to circumvent DRM, they will, if someone wants to steal something, they will, you can't stop certain people, you can only keep honest people honest. My philosophy is to do everything possible to not anger legit customers, and go from there. If someone is disgruntled, they will be more likely to pirate. Sadly however, most developers in both addons and full games have a tendency to just give the community the finger. One example of a developer I have some serious respect for is Bohemia Interactive. Perfect example is this, ArmA 2 was released in July, however they just came out with a patch for ArmA 1 to fix some issues remaining in it. Sure they release buggy games on release, however they have a tendency to really support their community.