They claim, because of everyone upgrading to Win 7 it's now taking them 3 days to process activations.

I just got a case of deja vu reading this. It's been a few months now (probably about the time W7 was released in fact) but I remember the last time Ariane's activation process was discussed in these forums the excuse for long delays was that everyone was upgrading to W7 and they had a lot of activations to process. I'm surprised they are still using that excuse now.

I just got a case of deja vu reading this. It's been a few months now (probably about the time W7 was released in fact) but I remember the last time Ariane's activation process was discussed in these forums the excuse for long delays was that everyone was upgrading to W7 and they had a lot of activations to process. I'm surprised they are still using that excuse now.

Probably until the next OS comes out.

I was recently bemoaning the lack of a decent 737 in fsx, and toyed with the idea of buying from that mob, but I can't get past their appalling reputation. Just when you think they've disappeared, up pops another poor punter here or on the other forums with activation and/or support issues. Given the very steep price of their product, you'd think you'd be getting extra-ordinary support, but the level of that seems to be inversely proportional to price. I've bought very widely, from "big" retailers and lots of much smaller niche players - direct, and via simmarket etc - and can honestly say that (apart from PSS and their unfixable deep-stalling airbuses!) I've never had a bad experience.It seems years ago that you couldn't even publish Peter Ti$hma's name on most fs forums because it provoked such a torrent of abuse and defamation. As I understand it, he no longer has any role in this company, but its approach to trade practices suggests that his legacy remains very much alive. Where does a retailer get off saying that there are no refunds? This is completely contrary to fundamental provisions of the trade practices legislation in most modern countries, including the UK (which is where I believe these people are).And since when is it ok to attempt to explain a refusal to refund on the basis that it will somehow adversely affect the purchasers reputation? Why is it that a customer stands a better chance of getting meaningful support on these boards than from the retailer?Fortunately, credit card companies are usually prepared to back the customer over the retailer.Ariane will never, ever get a cracker out of me.Jeff

Where does a retailer get off saying that there are no refunds? This is completely contrary to fundamental provisions of the trade practices legislation in most modern countries, including the UK (which is where I believe these people are).

There is no general right to a refund unless the goods are faulty. UK retailers won't give refunds on software unless it is faulty. The European Distance Selling Regulations do give a general right to a refund on goods bought over the internet. But this right doesn't apply to software that has been unsealed. The reasons are that it would be too easy to instal the software then claim a refund.I hold no brief for Arianne's business practices and have said in another post that I wouldn't touch it with the proverbial barge-pole. However, I feel we are in a grey area in relation to the OP's original point where he wrote "...it turns out I'm the only one that still has the problem." If that is so, it can hardly be claimed that the product is faulty.

......It seems years ago that you couldn't even publish Peter Ti$hma's name on most fs forums because it provoked such a torrent of abuse and defamation. As I understand it, he no longer has any role in this company, but its approach to trade practices suggests that his legacy remains very much alive. ......

Jeff, where did you get the idea that he's not still hiding behind rocks but still running Ariane?Toni.

The European Distance Selling Regulations do give a general right to a refund on goods bought over the internet. But this right doesn't apply to software that has been unsealed. The reasons are that it would be too easy to instal the software then claim a refund.

Exactly. Software (and magazines, books, food, etc.) are always specifically exempted from the right of refund under the Distance Selling Regulations in Europe.However, with regards to software, the law usually specifies it has to be unsealed to lose the right to a refund. I guess that, downloadable software that has an activation procedure, might be compared to a physical copy that can be unsealed.Since this thread's title is about the refund on a non-activated software, I guess the reply should be Yes, if the software is not activated, it should be considered as being still sealed, and it should be possible to ask for a refund.The general idea behind the refund under the Distance Selling Regulations, is that you might decide the product wasn't what you expected, because it's usually more difficult to form an opinion based on descriptions or pictures on a web page. In case of a downloadable software, if the seller is not offering a Trial version, it might be difficult to get a precise idea of it without installing it first.With this regard, the activation ( especially when a Trial version IS available ) can be very useful for the user, because he can BOTH try the product without having to purchase it, AND the activation is functioning also as a "proof" the product wasn't fully installed it, so the seller can't refuse a refund, if the product was never activated. It would be very difficult for the user to prove he hasn't installed or hasn't removed a product that doesn't use any form of activation.So, as counterintuitive as it might looks like at first, the method that protects the user better than anything else, and gives him both the chance to check if the product is good before buying (this would automatically reduce the refund requests, a lot), and it also respects the refund rights granted by law, is a software offered IN TRIAL version WITH an Activation method.Of course, provided that the Activation is implemented in a sane way. A system that always requires manual intervention for every activation, even the first one made when purchasing, is just wrong, and it's a lot of burden BOTH for users that have to wait their activations, and for the seller, that has to handle each case manually. It has to be fully automatic: manual intervention should be needed only to fix exceptional cases, like users having multiple hardware failures/changes in a short amount of time, which are really the minority.

If I recall correctly, the last big Ariane thread was about the horror of charging a reactivation fee. To be fair, I just changed computers and had my copy reactivated and there was never a mention of a fee. But I'll go along with the general consensus that manual activation is terribly inefficient and no one should have to wait two days and PM someone to get activated.

If I recall correctly, the last big Ariane thread was about the horror of charging a reactivation fee. To be fair, I just changed computers and had my copy reactivated and there was never a mention of a fee. But I'll go along with the general consensus that manual activation is terribly inefficient and no one should have to wait two days and PM someone to get activated.

Officially they do charge for reacts, 12+ euros. It's even listed in their products listings. Maybe with all the negative press about it, unofficially they are relaxing their stance.

Jeff, where did you get the idea that he's not still hiding behind rocks but still running Ariane?Toni.

Hi Toni,I wasn't suggesting that he was still running Ariane, what I meant was that Ariane still seem to conduct themselves in a manner that is reminiscent of those days when he was.I also didn't mean to imply that there was a general entitlement to a refund in the absence of of a fault (or some other condition precedent). Obviously, the entitlement only arises where the goods are defective/not of merchantable quality, or don't match the specs of what was advertised, or unfit for the intended purpose etc etc. Here though, Ariane's pricing suggests a product of superior quality, and creates a legitimate expectation that the installation and activation will be a straightforward process for most systems, and that technical support will be fulsome. In the present case, rather than telling the customer that they believed that the problem was at his end, and that he was therefore not entitled to a refund, they chose to use a bull$**t excuse that reads very much like an attempt to evade their lawful obligations. The suggestion that the payment of a refund would have the result that the customer would thereafter be identified as "dodgy" throughout the world of e-commerce was particularly disturbing. That they chose to respond in that way should cause prospective customers to be very wary. cheers,jeff

In EU you have 7 days to cancel purchase for non-faulty goods if you shop online. For goods you buy in a shop, I believe this period is 14 days (not sure, but it's more than one week).. without any reasons you can return what you bought and get your money back. Doesn't apply to plane, train or concert tickets, or hotel booking, food and drink delivered to you by regular delivery.

Doesn't apply to plane, train or concert tickets, or hotel booking, food and drink

Or downloadable software.

In EU you have 7 days to cancel purchase for non-faulty goods if you shop online.

It's 7 days minimum, it goes up to 14 days in some EU States, and it's for online purchases only.

For goods you buy in a shop, I believe this period is 14 days (not sure, but it's more than one week).. without any reasons you can return what you bought and get your money back.

No, you can't. Goods purchased in a shop can't be returned without being faulty, only goods sold online, by telephone, etc. Of course, if a regular shop offers you this chance anyway, it's clearly permitted but, even if the majority of big shopping chains would allow it, that doesn't mean is a right guaranteed by law. The right to return an item without being faulty, for the only reason that you simply changed your mind about it, is guaranteed by law ONLY for distance selling methods, like online, by telephone, mail order catalogs, etc...

Doesn't apply to plane, train or concert tickets, or hotel booking, food and drink delivered to you by regular delivery.

And, most important, doesn't apply to movies on dvd, audio cd AND software products, if they have been opened by the customer.

No, you can't. Goods purchased in a shop can't be returned without being faulty

I did a quick research and you're right.

Hi Toni,I wasn't suggesting that he was still running Ariane, what I meant was that Ariane still seem to conduct themselves in a manner that is reminiscent of those days when he was.I also didn't mean to imply that there was a general entitlement to a refund in the absence of of a fault (or some other condition precedent). Obviously, the entitlement only arises where the goods are defective/not of merchantable quality, or don't match the specs of what was advertised, or unfit for the intended purpose etc etc. Here though, Ariane's pricing suggests a product of superior quality, and creates a legitimate expectation that the installation and activation will be a straightforward process for most systems, and that technical support will be fulsome. In the present case, rather than telling the customer that they believed that the problem was at his end, and that he was therefore not entitled to a refund, they chose to use a bull$**t excuse that reads very much like an attempt to evade their lawful obligations. The suggestion that the payment of a refund would have the result that the customer would thereafter be identified as "dodgy" throughout the world of e-commerce was particularly disturbing. That they chose to respond in that way should cause prospective customers to be very wary. cheers,jeff

Hi JeffNot wishing to trawl up old news, Avsim clearly proved Tishma was behind Ariane quite a while ago, and nothing has occured (as far as I'm aware) to alter that fact.The ridiculous idea that refunding could cause the customer general e-commerce grief is, of course, complete madness but appears typical of the type of response that Tishma (sorry, Ariane) would come up with to hold onto someone's money.Forget bad customer relations - (when did Ariane really give a stuff about customer relations?) - the product simply cannot be made to work on this guys rig and therefore is 'unfit for the purpose' which demands a full refund. To all intents and purposes, it's totally equivalent to a sealed unit, never used, etc.Legally, what possible justification could Ariane have for not giving the guy his money back?Toni.

the product simply cannot be made to work on this guys rig and therefore is 'unfit for the purpose' which demands a full refund. To all intents and purposes, it's totally equivalent to a sealed unit, never used, etc.

That would be fair enough if it was true, but a quick look on the thread post timings will confirm that the problem with activating the software was solved less than two hours after the original poster pointed out his issue, when I suggested a solution for it.This doesn't excuse everything that happened to the OP, but at least stick to facts.Al