But Canada is targeted far less than the US. I think PingPongs' question was asking if thousands of people had been killed in Canadian flights, would Canada do things differently?Bob

Guys, I am afraid this thread is only going to take a turn for the worse, so I am bowing out before I go all

It's Thanksgiving here in the US I am thankful that I can have a safe and happy holiday with my loved ones, and wish the same for all of you.

But Canada is targeted far less than the US. I think PingPongs' question was asking if thousands of people had been killed in Canadian flights, would Canada do things differently?Bob

Maybe it’s a question of degree because Canadians were among the victims - so were many other foreign nationals.Of course things are different now...Body xray scanners, physical searches and dogs are used in Canadian airports for US bound passengers.Clearly Canada is a gateway to the US. Security is taken seriously.For domestic flights traditional metal detectors are still used, as far as I know.N.B. - The dogs are for drugs of course, I just mention them because of personal experience.They are very cute, and once when some kids in front of me tried to pet one, I reached out to pet it too.It sat down next to me…and well the rest is history.I can laugh about it now.

A greater threat to civil aviation is the ever increasing world demand for oil and the peaking of supply. As Asia joins the world of mass air travel and ethylene consumption leaps (it's made from oil- for plastics), the era of inexpensive "VFR" flight (Visiting Friends & Relatives) will fade. Saudi Arabia is well along in its switch from supplying fuel to making ethylene instead.It wasn't that long ago that flying was primarily for business or those with substantial financial resources. That time- before the jet age, was only 50 years ago!The energy economics of the next decade or two will be very challenging for both the civil aviation industry and their customers. Al Qaeda may be more of a nuisance than will be the consequences of diminishing supply- and increasing cost of oil.Alex Reid

What I find ironic is that the people who complained about secret wiretaps are now OK with being groped by a government agency. What has changed? Muslims in the US are wanting to use the TSA's own rules against themselves by having their head and neck searched by themselves in exchange for a hand swab. We recently have seen videos of kids under 12 without a t-shirt on being searched even though it has been plainly stated by the head of the TSA that children under 12 will not be subjected to such searches. I had to go through the scanner and was still patted down. Why both when it is supposed to be one or the other? Will I still have to consent to both even after I have been through a thorough background check to get a TWIC card by the TSA? It's bad enough to have to have said card to enter some places to be able to earn a living, but to have to be subjected to all of it is over the top. While the opt out day may have fizzled, the TSA has stated that they are looking at changing some things. I also heard that flight attendants will also be exempt from going through either procedure. I have also heard something of being able to pay for a background check and the like to get a card from the TSA so one doesn't have to go through such searches. Sure, we elect to fly and yes, it is not a right, but we do have a right to not be treated like criminals just because we choose to fly. In some cases, I am told to be at the airport, the tickets are bought for me by the company who hired me from my company. I really do not have a choice.

But Canada is targeted far less than the US. I think PingPongs' question was asking if thousands of people had been killed in Canadian flights, would Canada do things differently?Bob

OK.....Look at it this way. According to the CIA World Fact Book...USA Population - 310,232,863 (July 2010 est.)Canada Population - 33,759,742 (July 2010 est.)So that is a population ratio of 9 to 1So therefore…Canada would receive one terrorist threat for every nine terrorist threats received in the USA….Let me continue….Canada’s economy should be around 9:1 compared to the USA, but why is the Canadian Dollar trading equal to the US Dollar…..That means right now 1 in 9 Canadian are doing 9 times more then every American to make that dollar par to the US dollar….TALK ABOUT UNDERDOGSIn the last Winter Olympics…..Canada won a historical 14 Gold Medals. More then any other Nation. The USA won a lot of silver and bronze, but if you consider our 33,759,742 people supported and backed our athletes….I don’t care how you look at it….That is a major underdog victory. Especially in Men’s Hockey.So back to your original question….”But Canada is targeted far less than the US.?”Because we are a completely different nation compared to the USA. Different laws, different governments. Different set of charter of rights and freedoms. No point in comparing apples to oranges.However if an American wants to compare Canada to USA on a 1:1 level….Not True and don’t bother….It is 9:1 and we have always done more to live up to the USA. That is what being an underdog is all about. Today Canada lives with more freedoms and a stronger economy compared to the USA….Right now we have a dollar par with the USA with only 33,759,742 people compared to 310,232,863 people (or 9:1)….and the latest statistic shows 1 in 7 US citizens right now are living in poverty…. Let me know how you see it then….At least we are doing our part.

OK.....Look at it this way. According to the CIA World Fact Book...USA Population - 310,232,863 (July 2010 est.)Canada Population - 33,759,742 (July 2010 est.)So that is a population ratio of 9 to 1So therefore…Canada would receive one terrorist threat for every nine terrorist threats received in the USA….Let me continue….Canada’s economy should be around 9:1 compared to the USA, but why is the Canadian Dollar trading equal to the US Dollar…..That means right now 1 in 9 Canadian are doing 9 times more then every American to make that dollar par to the US dollar….TALK ABOUT UNDERDOGSIn the last Winter Olympics…..Canada won a historical 14 Gold Medals. More then any other Nation. The USA won a lot of silver and bronze, but if you consider our 33,759,742 people supported and backed our athletes….I don’t care how you look at it….That is a major underdog victory. Especially in Men’s Hockey.So back to your original question….”But Canada is targeted far less than the US.?”Because we are a completely different nation compared to the USA. Different laws, different governments. Different set of charter of rights and freedoms. No point in comparing apples to oranges.However if an American wants to compare Canada to USA on a 1:1 level….Not True and don’t bother….It is 9:1 and we have always done more to live up to the USA. That is what being an underdog is all about. Today Canada lives with more freedoms and a stronger economy compared to the USA….Right now we have a dollar par with the USA with only 33,759,742 people compared to 310,232,863 people (or 9:1)….and the latest statistic shows 1 in 7 US citizens right now are living in poverty…. Let me know how you see it then….At least we are doing our part.

I never said anything against Canada. I was merely rephrasing someone else's question. But since I seem to be the wiping boy of this thread, I'll bite.As far a terrorism goes, Canada is a much safer place to live than the US. How can that have anything to do with population ratio? Terrorists don't care about population. They don't care about the economy of their targets. And what on earth have the Olympics got to do with it. Or the poverty level. Unless you listing ways that Canada is better than the US. I'm not interested in that question, either way.I'm sorry you seem to have taken my comments as some kind of slight.Bob

I never said anything against Canada. I was merely rephrasing someone else's question. But since I seem to be the wiping boy of this thread, I'll bite.As far a terrorism goes, Canada is a much safer place to live than the US. How can that have anything to do with population ratio? Terrorists don't care about population. They don't care about the economy of their targets. And what on earth have the Olympics got to do with it. Or the poverty level. Unless you listing ways that Canada is better than the US. I'm not interested in that question, either way.I'm sorry you seem to have taken my comments as some kind of slight.Bob

Cheers Mate....Just came home from the Pub is all....I will admit looking into it I probably read into it a little too much...Call it Nationalism or National Pride.Truth is I love Canada and I love the USA as well.....I will say this, in my lifetime I have never experienced anything better then my travels into the USA....I've been to about 35 of every US state and have enjoyed everywhere I have been in the USA. In the past there are so many memories.If I come off the way I have, only because I am not only passionate about Canada....I also believe in the USA....I just think you guys down there are a bit like Rocky Balboa right now…..A little bit down at the moment. But like Rocky you will come back like he has and USA does every time.Don’t worry about China….Don’t worry about Northern Korea….If USA continues like it always has….the story goes like the end of any Rocky film…..(well except for the first one).USA is awesome and so is Canada….I just really like being the underdog and Canada is small compared to the USA and we do work hard on the world stage….But you guys are awesome too. We couldn’t be what we are without each other…..If you ever need our CF-18’s to defend Alaska again…just let us know….We are always there when you call us up…(well except for the second Iraq invasion). BUT we were there the first time. I think the second time we just didn’t buy the ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction’ argument. George Senior had the better argument and we where there with him the first time…..George JR…Not so much…. Ah well. :(

I happen to think that commercial flying is a privilege, not a right so if these are hoops we have to jump through to keep our skies (relatively) safe then I do them gladly. After looking at the dose (less than 1 mrem) for each scan I can live with it, it's less than a cross-country flight itself(2-5 mrem). I would rather people get screened and grumble then my plane go down in flames from some nutjob with a bomb.

Commercial flying is neither a priveledge nor a right. It is a service you bought from a company. But to get to it, you have to use a public use facility. The question is whether the government has the right to treat ordinary citizens using that public facility in a manner which even police officers are not allowed to treat people who are under arrest. So where do you draw the boundaries of what the government can do to its ordinary citizens? At the metal detectors? At the virtual strip search? At the manual search of genitals? At the anal cavity search? At the vaginal cavity search? If what they do now is ok since it is supposed to make us safer, why wouldn't any of those cavity searches be ok for everybody as long it is supposed to make us feel safer? You may feel "so what" I don't mind having a finger up my azz, but would you want your daughter or mother to go through that? Is this what Al-Queda has forced this country to? They've won a big victory if that is so.

Commercial flying is neither a priveledge nor a right. It is a service you bought from a company. But to get to it, you have to use a public use facility. The question is whether the government has the right to treat ordinary citizens using that public facility in a manner which even police officers are not allowed to treat people who are under arrest. So where do you draw the boundaries of what the government can do to its ordinary citizens? At the metal detectors? At the virtual strip search? At the manual search of genitals? At the anal cavity search? At the vaginal cavity search? If what they do now is ok since it is supposed to make us safer, why wouldn't any of those cavity searches be ok for everybody as long it is supposed to make us feel safer? You may feel "so what" I don't mind having a finger up my azz, but would you want your daughter or mother to go through that? Is this what Al-Queda has forced this country to? They've won a big victory if that is so.

Except that the Feds control every aspect of commercial flying. Yes, I buy my ticket from a company, but only because that company is allowed to sell it and licensed to operate planes. One word from the Feds and no planes fly. Sounds like flying might be a privilege to me. Does that give the TSA the right to do whatever they want? 'Course not. I think the pat downs are out of line. And I'm not sure about the scans, though I'll take the scan if I have too. Why? Do I not like my privacy? Of course I do. I have had two major surgeries. Both times more people have seen more parts of me than a single agent ever will. And not all the hospital people were professionals. And then there was the 50 year old female nurse, who at one time could have been a linebacker for the Rams, who had to cram a suppository up my butt. Does that mean everyone should be subject to the scans. Of course not. But I think that Wednesday should that most Americans aren't bothered.I don't think Al-Queda cares how many freedoms we may or may not have. They just want us dead.Bob

I think what the difference between flying today and flying in the past (from the 1950's up to the 1980's) is back then when you bought a ticket you felt a certain level on entitlement. You demanded top customer service and a comfortable flight. So you had a perception that your rights where not being violated when you fly. Today all that is out.Today they are saying you gave up all your rights the moment you bought a ticket. So that sense of entitlement is lost.

Except that the Feds control every aspect of commercial flying. Yes, I buy my ticket from a company, but only because that company is allowed to sell it and licensed to operate planes. One word from the Feds and no planes fly. Sounds like flying might be a privilege to me. Does that give the TSA the right to do whatever they want? 'Course not. I think the pat downs are out of line. And I'm not sure about the scans, though I'll take the scan if I have too. Why? Do I not like my privacy? Of course I do. I have had two major surgeries. Both times more people have seen more parts of me than a single agent ever will. And not all the hospital people were professionals. And then there was the 50 year old female nurse, who at one time could have been a linebacker for the Rams, who had to cram a suppository up my butt. Does that mean everyone should be subject to the scans. Of course not. But I think that Wednesday should that most Americans aren't bothered.I don't think Al-Queda cares how many freedoms we may or may not have. They just want us dead.Bob

OK, I see where you stand. It's out of line but you'll do it if they say you have to. That is cowardice. And it's not that most Americans aren't bothered, it's just that most Americans couldn't be bothered. Most Americans couldn't be bothered to take a stand or do something difficult against something that they know is wrong. Most Americans will take the easy way out. If the easy way out is to cooperate with an illegal strip search, then so be it. They have better things to do than to take a stand against a wrong or fight for the preservation of principles for the future of this country. Too esoteric. Can't be bothered. I don't know what's worse, cowardice or indifference. Maybe people are both.If Al-Queda just want us dead, then why did they try to bomb the two cargo planes? Kill four cargo pilots? No. They've got an even better goal. They want to destroy our way of life. They target our economy and they target our freedoms. Our way of life in the West is anathema to them. Killing people is not their purpose. Killing people is but a side product of the ultimate goal of destroying the West. Their stated strategy towards acheiving that goal is to bankrupt the West. If one misguided teenager wearing flammable underwear can cause the US government to spend half a billion dollars that they do not have on some machine, then their strategy is working. And as a bonus, those infidel Westerners have some of their so called "freedoms" taken away as well. All the better.One of the few things that the government got right immediately after 9/11 was to tell everybody to go on and live their lives as they always have. To continue travelling. To continue shopping. To continue going to movies. To continue living their lives as they have done before 9/11 is the best way to repudiate those who committed the acts of terror. We have forgotten this. We have let the fear take hold. When you let the fear take hold as a reason to justify giving away a piece of what was essential to you, you have let those who commit acts of terror take one step closer to their goal of taking away your way of life.

1. Many folks hate profiling. I don't care either way(don't forget, I only care about myself). You claim to care about others. What about all the innocent people who resent profiling, and don't feel the government has a right to do it. I am not likely to be profiled(are you?), though I have had my shoes run through an explosives scanner. I guess I am being profiled, and just too dump to not know it.2. What about all the cases where plots were foiled. Too easy to concentrate on mistakes. 3. Part of the reason that terrorists hate us so much is because we have meddled in their countries so much already. Besides, what you suggest is already going on.In the end, you are not going to change my mind, and I am not going to change yours. May I suggest we just move on.Bob

I guess since we are back at it, I will respond to this. I thought you had suggested we just move on.1. You confuse racial profiling and behavioral profiling. You Lilly White BobbyJack would be profiled exactly the same as a Muslim person under behavioral profiling. It looks at behavior markers and common sense to detect a threat. So yes, if you give off a smell they don't like, you BobbyJack would be just as likely to be pulled aside as a dark colored guy wearing something around the head would be.2. No plots were ever foiled at the TSA checkpoint. Everything that you have ever heard of as being foiled was brought down by intelligence and law enforcement agencies and taken down before they ever got to an airport or airplane. Everything you ever heard of as being foiled aboard an aircraft went right past the airport security checkpoint.3. Our wealth is not unlimited. Instead of spending $400M on these machines, how about more on bomb sniffing dogs to patrol the airports? Much more effective than any puffer machine or backscatter machine. Unintrusive. Constitutional. Maybe even cute and cuddly.

The reality is that there is no one perfect method to secure the air, however hyperbole over sensationalist crap isn't going to help anyone.

OK, I see where you stand. It's out of line but you'll do it if they say you have to. That is cowardice. And it's not that most Americans aren't bothered, it's just that most Americans couldn't be bothered. Most Americans couldn't be bothered to take a stand or do something difficult against something that they know is wrong. Most Americans will take the easy way out. If the easy way out is to cooperate with an illegal strip search, then so be it. They have better things to do than to take a stand against a wrong or fight for the preservation of principles for the future of this country. Too esoteric. Can't be bothered. I don't know what's worse, cowardice or indifference. Maybe people are both.If Al-Queda just want us dead, then why did they try to bomb the two cargo planes? Kill four cargo pilots? No. They've got an even better goal. They want to destroy our way of life. They target our economy and they target our freedoms. Our way of life in the West is anathema to them. Killing people is not their purpose. Killing people is but a side product of the ultimate goal of destroying the West. Their stated strategy towards acheiving that goal is to bankrupt the West. If one misguided teenager wearing flammable underwear can cause the US government to spend half a billion dollars that they do not have on some machine, then their strategy is working. And as a bonus, those infidel Westerners have some of their so called "freedoms" taken away as well. All the better.One of the few things that the government got right immediately after 9/11 was to tell everybody to go on and live their lives as they always have. To continue travelling. To continue shopping. To continue going to movies. To continue living their lives as they have done before 9/11 is the best way to repudiate those who committed the acts of terror. We have forgotten this. We have let the fear take hold. When you let the fear take hold as a reason to justify giving away a piece of what was essential to you, you have let those who commit acts of terror take one step closer to their goal of taking away your way of life.

OK. Because I'm a puddle of fear in a corner, it has taken me awhile to follow your scattered attacks.You hate the government. It is obviously too stupid to see things as clearly as you. But our government is many people, sometimes working together, sometimes not. Shall we go back to a monarchy? Don't think so. Even now steps are being taken to possibly change the checkpoint system. There is preasure inside and outside the government. That's the way it works.You hate Americans. You think we are all cattle being led to slaughter. You think we are a too stupid to see what's going on. Our freedoms are being taken away. We better watch out because the next steps are public book burnings, and our firearms will be taken away. You hate me. I can't figure out why you are wasting your time on that one.So much hate.Bob