So he puts down flight simmers, and also belittles Sullenberger. Flight simmers don't know how hard it is to fly a plane on regular procedures, but Sullenberger was just lucky because the Hudson was there?I dunno, sounds idiotic to me

If you'd taken the time to actually read what he said, he did not, in fact, belittle Sullenberger. In fact, some of the points he made have been spoken by Sullenberger himself.

Very lucky to get that kind of oppertunity Ryan. Only simulator I have ever had the oppertunity to go to was our own in Mayport, and it is a crappy 80's simulator where everything is flat, and there are just areas to land on. I guess that was the upgrade of the prior sim where they had a camera that flew around a room with a scale model setup of an area. I hope to get to a good simulator soon. They have been moving in equipment for the new simulator (for the brand new MH-60R's we have), and I think it is a level D as it has full motion capability with all the modern advents. I would love to go to a real airliner sim, but I have read that it can be extremely expensive for even a small amount of time.

If you'd taken the time to actually read what he said, he did not, in fact, belittle Sullenberger. In fact, some of the points he made have been spoken by Sullenberger himself.

admittedly I stopped reading half way through that post after finishing the "simmer bashing" one. my bad. It makes sense after reading it all

Very lucky to get that kind of oppertunity Ryan. Only simulator I have ever had the oppertunity to go to was our own in Mayport, and it is a crappy 80's simulator where everything is flat, and there are just areas to land on. I guess that was the upgrade of the prior sim where they had a camera that flew around a room with a scale model setup of an area. I hope to get to a good simulator soon. They have been moving in equipment for the new simulator (for the brand new MH-60R's we have), and I think it is a level D as it has full motion capability with all the modern advents. I would love to go to a real airliner sim, but I have read that it can be extremely expensive for even a small amount of time.

In my experience they've gone for about $250 an hour. That's about what we charged at ERAU, anyways. It's expensive, but I view it like renting a 172 and flying half as long for twice the price. :(

Where I think a problem would likely occur for a simmer is if the person has never felt actual control forces and range of movement on the yoke in a transport category aircraft or has never felt the motion cues from actual flight. If a simmer who's never flown a real aircraft and dealt with those things suddenly had to hand fly a real 737 approach based only on their experience with a tiny Saitek joystick or something like that, I think the potential for disaster would be a lot higher than when dealing purely with autopilot based procedures. What I'd do in that situation I think is just try to get a feel for how the real yoke responds and how the forces feel during normal turns and whatnot before attempting the approach - I'd also have my thumb on that TOGA button the entire time and if I felt like even the slightest thing was going wrong, I'd press it and go around to try again as long as fuel would permit.

In addition to that, knowing as much as I know about the autopilot system on the 737 and 747, I'd utilise that right up to the last possible moment to give me the best possible chance of making a safe landing.

He's definitely right about autolands and stuff - a "greaser" really nice landing is NEVER an autoland. You can tell immediately because autolands are actually designed to be very firm - they're most often used in bad weather and the designers want to make sure the tires get good firm contact with the runway - greasing it on is the last thing you want an autoland system trying to do.The article below that one about a simmer having a "zero percent chance" of landing a plane if the pilots became incapacitated though I disagree with him on. Maybe if he's talking about people whose "desktop sim time" is limited to MS default Cessnas or something, but if you're an expert with a sim like our NGX, I really do think you'd probably have a fighting chance of succeeding. The chance would also be improved if you had VATSIM experience and could follow normal ATC instructions, read charts etc. I think real pilots who haven't seen stuff like what we make underestimate how sophisticated MSFS has become...

I wouldn't know how to key the mic or how trim "really" works. :)Plus the very real fear of death is always a multiplier in the "what the heck should I be doing" equation.

In addition to that, knowing as much as I know about the autopilot system on the 737 and 747, I'd utilise that right up to the last possible moment to give me the best possible chance of making a safe landing.

well I imagine that in such an emergency they would clear all traffic and vector you to the closest CAT III where you could simply autoland.

well I imagine that in such an emergency they would clear all traffic and vector you to the closest CAT III where you could simply autoland.

Depending on all circumstances. One likely way to incapacitate a flight crew is a bird through the Flight Deck window, which would probably happen outside of AutoPilot use during the climb or final approach.I'm not sure how much work a hardcore PMDG pilot could do if given the controls in a condition like that: Powerful 200mph winds smacking them in the face, enduring the roar of a deafening wind, ice-cold windchill, debris and papers flying everywhere, aural alerts ringing like crazy.It's happened before, but in all the cases I've heard at least one of the pilots remained capable of landing (or crash landing) safely. I've always felt that the "both pilots pass out leaving someone to take over during cruise at FL360" scenario to be too casual to ever really happen. If it did, I think it would be something like the above scenario.

...What I'd do in that situation I think is just try to get a feel for how the real yoke responds and how the forces feel during normal turns and whatnot before attempting the approach

Funny you should mention that Ryan. Back when the Avsim convention was in DEN I spent several hours in UAL's 737 simulator, and the first thing the instructor did was to "drop" us in at altitude & 250kts to do exactly this. Once we'd gotten a basic feel for the control force and resultant movements we moved to the at-gate scenarios. It definitely made a huge difference. With moderate winds at SFO was able to fly the approach and put it on the runway without jarring too many fillings loose in back (at least that was the very generous opinion of the inst.). What I remember most was the engine-out at rotation that he threw in; of course the instructor told us it was coming, but the resulting asymmetry about several axes was a surprise, as was the power of the jet to climb out even on one powerplant.Dan D.

I've always felt that the "both pilots pass out leaving someone to take over during cruise at FL360" scenario to be too casual to ever really happen. If it did, I think it would be something like the above scenario.

of course. it's so unlikely that it's not even worth arguing. on top of that what are the chances of having a proficient simmer on board in such an unfortunate event? and it has to be only one, because if there's two of them they would fight to death to take over hehe.

It's the same argument that comes around time and again on flight sim sites. You'll never get a definitive answer to the 'could a novice land it?' question because it depends on exactly the circumstances of the scenario.Could a reasonably competent simmer get a Cessna up around and down? Yes, I reckon so, if everything was working right and they were the kind of person who could remain calm. They might even pull off a pretty nice landing if luck was with them.Could they do it in a powerful taildragger such as a P-51? Probably one time out of ten, if they were lucky.Could a simmer land an airliner? Again, probably yes if there was nothing wrong with it and the weather was calm and they could work the radio and get assistance to set up an automatic approach. But let's add a bit of realism: try it with screaming passengers and two dead pilots propped up against the circuit breakers; it's difficult to imagine even the most calm of experienced simmers taking things in a nonchalant fashion in that scenario, which would be the only way they'd get to have a try.Anyone who has flown an aircraft for real (and there will certainly be many of us on Avsim who do) will confirm that when your instructor utters those long dreamed of words: 'fancy a crack at it on your own?' that cockpit suddenly seems awfully lonely, and all the desire to make it to that point goes right out of the cockpit with the instructor as he walks away pretending to be unconcerned. That's something every pilot has to get past, and any pilot who tells you he was supremely confident when that moment arrived, is a goddam liar, because it suddenly becomes very apparent that if you arse this one up, you'll die.Al

Anyone who has flown an aircraft for real (and there will certainly be many of us on Avsim who do) will confirm that when your instructor utters those long dreamed of words: 'fancy a crack at it on your own?' that cockpit suddenly seems awfully lonely, and all the desire to make it to that point goes right out of the cockpit with the instructor as he walks away pretending to be unconcerned. That's something every pilot has to get past, and any pilot who tells you he was supremely confident when that moment arrived, is a goddam liar, because it suddenly becomes very apparent that if you arse this one up, you'll die.

Fully agree. It is one thing to do it in a simulator and completely different to do it in an actual airliner full of passengers while on top of that you never flew anything in RW, not even a small Cessna. Anyone has has been through a first solo flight knows what it means. If someone showed me a beam 6 inches wide, 200 ft long and elevated 2 feet over the ground and asked me to walk on it I would only laugh "what kind of silly test is it?" but if the same beam was spread between two former WTC towers (I missed them!) and asked to repeat the feat that would all of a sudden be no laughing matter. Believe me there is a lot of wisdom in this comparison.

The Mythbusters tested this exact myth...minus the whole flight sim spin. There used to be a short excerpt of the segment, but I only found the whole episode. Here's part one of it. You should be able to find the rest of the parts easily.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxabBA__6bo

That's something every pilot has to get past, and any pilot who tells you he was supremely confident when that moment arrived, is a goddam liar, because it suddenly becomes very apparent that if you arse this one up, you'll die.Al

Al, it's true, every pilot goes through a first solo and a series of emotions, fears and confidence riddle the brain when it's actually supposed to be focusing on getting that airplane up and quickly bringing it back down.However, saying that those pilots, young ones, if I may add, are 'goddam liars' is just silly when they were really confident that the day they dreamed of their entire life finally came true... For one, I took to the skies very well on my first flight, didn't ask a whole bunch of questions, did everything my instructor said and also took in what he was saying. It was during that first flight, when my instructor Mike was explaining everything from pre-flight all the way until handing back the keys that I pieced it all together. Did confidence play a role? Was this why I didn't scream off the top of my lungs when those wheels lifted off? In my opinion, you're either born to fly or you aren't and have to overcome a lot more than others. I'm attending an Aviation Management program in College at the moment and I'm with the first year guys, and a few girls, who've never flown before at the start of the school year. I already had my PPL at the start and immediately knew who would make it all the way up to the Commercial Written Exam and who wouldn't. It's already December and exam week is here and low and behold my predictions were mostly true. A lot of the guys slack off, think they just went from zero to hero in a week and can do anything. It's their lifestyle, mainly that influences whether they succeed or not. Nothing against any of my fellow classmates, rather we all have good laughs in-between classes and at the flying club but I just don't see some of them as right seater's in the future unless they're fed the truth about how this industry works and how to perform their duties as pilots Yes, we are student pilots, but it's where we also contrast between being a student pilot and pilot-in-command (on solo flights). And I'm sure you know that industry knowledge doesn't come from your Calculus teacher. This is why I'm not too keen about these extremely expensive programs that fast track students to 200 hours in just 2 years with a CPL, Multi-IFR and a College Diploma. Everyone's aware of the costs, and a lot don't spend wisely. I've been taught early on to make the most out the time that engine is running. But what the hell, no College, no job......So to sum it all up, we're all aware of the dangers of flying as pilots and especially when it's our first solo circuit, let alone having to deal with family members praying we come back down with that tin-can all in one piece .I wouldn't be writing all this if I wasn't to say I wasn't confident and fully prepared to take on those 6 minutes by myself for the first time. I felt no fear, knew what I was getting myself into, knew the airplane, knew my procedures and overall, had that extra confidence boost from my great instructor. So sorry, but I'm not a 'goddam liar', and neither are a lot of student pilots when you ask em if they were extremely confident and ready for their first solo. Just to add, I solo'ed at only 11 hours.Well, back to waiting for the NGX

Powerful 200mph winds smacking them in the face, enduring the roar of a deafening wind, ice-cold windchill, debris and papers flying everywhere, aural alerts ringing like crazy.

Maybe a pair of goggles, some ear plugs and a nice red/black striped scarf would be required.... :(