I have watched this video and my heart bleeds for the callousness displayed.What is wrong with these people, quite honestly they make me ashamed even though I am not involved.I am glad to sign the petition, I hope millions sign it.I will be forwarding this link to everyone I can think of so that more can sign as well.Thank you for posting.Bryan.

What is wrong with these people, quite honestly they make me ashamed even though I am not involved.

Read my post for an answer. We are dealing with vast cultural differences and world views...

PhilI am disappointed that you have had to take any abuse over this. But...This situation raises more questions for me than answers. I am not interested in watching the video. The description was enough for me. Not that the age of the video makes much difference(I'm sure this kind of thing has been going on for a long time), but how did you find out how old it is? I see that PTROA is an Israeli group that is two years old. Not that that means anything, but I don't see it mentioned on any international animal rights lists. The question for me is not why responses are so low in the US and the UK, but why the response is so low in Israel, and so high in Poland. I went to the PTROA web page. Much of it is not yet(after two years) translated into English. What is in English is sorely in need of an English speaking copy editor. Important to the problem? No. Important to the cause? Yes, if you want folks to take you seriously. They are looking for people to join them that have a military background, because they do many things in secret. This says to me that they are entering China illegally (or at least under false pretenses)and doing things undercover. Is it OK to break a country's laws and then ask that county to enact certain other laws (animal rights, in this case). And what about the "China Mission". That link does not work on the web site.I read several of the comments left by signers of the petition. Here, too, I am disappointed. So much hate. This is not an answer to the problem. I'm not really interested in identifying with so much hate. Lets remember that China owns mush of the West's dept. I doubt that they give a fig about what a petition says. The real problem is the extreme poverty in China. People do what they have to. They know the animals suffer. It's either them, or the animals. What concerns me more is how people treat people. Of course we should treat animals well, but our history of how we treat each other is not very good. We tend to think of other people who do not think as we do as sub-human. Therefore, it's OK to skin them alive, or cut off extremities until there is nothing left, or shove hoses down their throats and fill them with water, and watch them burst. We have done this since time began, and will continue to do so. Of course the abuse in China needs to be addressed. I'm not sure PTROA is the answer.Bob

Read my post for an answer. We are dealing with vast cultural differences and world views...

I'm afraid it goes well beyond that. It's just pure common sense that any living thing can suffer.Dogs and cats quite obviously have feelings, and just as obviously can suffer pain.EDIT: I have removed the main part of my post because on reflection I was wrong to pick out any one race. All races have been guilty of inhumanity and cruelty throughout the ages, but I do believe that once you display cruelty as show in the video Dougal posted then you are one step removed from treating human beings the same way. Calousness bring about a deadening of emotions and and a lack of thought for life, human or otherwise.Bryan.

I do have to ask however, how is this any different than how the poultry industry world-wide treats chickens, ducks and turkeys, aside that the poultry are killed prior to further processing?

I really think you've answered your own question there. don't you?I'm not going to start with... 'With respect', because in all honesty, it would not be true, I can I only say I believe your opinion to be not only incorrect, but misleading.---------------------------------------------------------------------------I too wish this NOT be, or become racist. I believe it has nothing what-so-ever to do with race or culture. It has everything to do with humanity, or more so, the lack of, regardless of race or culture.

You can say what you like, but their is a contempt displayed for any kind of life in certain parts of the world.Bryan.

I think it has little to do with respect for live or certain parts of the world.There is plenty of documentation of of abuse all over the world, both in the past and now. American Indians,Aztecs, tribes in Africa(all very spiritual groups),to name a few. We just don't treat each other very well. You and I would never dream of abusing another life form. But this is not a dream.Bob

I really think you've answered your own question there. don't you?I'm not going to start with... 'With respect', because in all honesty, it would not be true, I can I only say I believe your opinion to be not only incorrect, but misleading.---------------------------------------------------------------------------I too wish this NOT be, or become racist. I believe it has nothing what-so-ever to do with race or culture. It has everything to do with humanity, or more so, the lack of, regardless of race or culture.

There are plenty of reports of countries where thousands of chickens are tied to feeding troughs with their legs cut off so they can't move and their beaks cut down so they can't "hurt" each other.Bob

There are plenty of reports of countries where thousands of chickens are tied to feeding troughs with their legs cut off so they can't move and their beaks cut down so they can't "hurt" each other.Bob

I'm aware of that Bob, and I can personally assure you, they are not just reports. I have witnessed almost the scenario you describe while serving in Malaysia. I had to stand by watching - pretending I was enjoying it, like everyone else around. You make a valid point though, and I think I understand why you've pointed it out. However, there has come a point in MY life where I've 'had it' with watching and doing nothing about such things. I spent years protecting the lives, properties (and rights) of people. I guess now i'm not willing to stand by and watch those animals treated any differently?Believe it or not, I do accept that the majority (especially here) do not feel the way I do Bob, and I don't EXPECT (nor try to force) anyone here to do likewise. It is after all, said here on FS forums frquently enough... "no one is forcing you to you to buy the product".I do hope though, given the circs, you're at least willing to understand why I will do just about anything to 'air' this subject in public. That is why, rightly or wrongly, i've used (ABused some say) my membership of this, and many other forums. Judging from the emails I've had, I've pretty much alienated myself over this. Although I'm trying to keep it to an absolute minimum, I'll not loose too much sleep by offending a few sensibilities. I've been shot at, knifed and beaten half to death on multiple occations in my (retired) profession. There's not much more anyone can do to me I think. Actually, strike that - I guess they could skin me alive...Also, just because we know it happens... Does that mean we should ignore it, pretend it might go away or stop on it's own. Nor does it make it any more acceptable.

Sorry Bob - forgot....

PhilI'm not sure PTROA is the answer.Bob

Sadly nor am I, but until I see another, or better yet, more productive solution, it's pretty much the only diplomatic non violent one (well, almost).

Sorry Bob - forgot....Sadly nor am I, but until I see another, or better yet, more productive solution, it's pretty much the only diplomatic non violent one (well, almost).

Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side. Of course this should not be ignored. I just think that before I support an orgaization, I'd want to know more about them. I can't believe that this is the only group working on this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side. Of course this should not be ignored. I just think that before I support an orgaization, I'd want to know more about them. I can't believe that this is the only group working on this.

To my current knowledge, it's the only substantial group with even a smidgin of polital clout.

(snip) The link shows some of the most disturbing video feed I have ever seen in my life and, believe me, having seen covert active service several times, I've seen many things one should not.There is a also a petition there to sign, which is why I want to spread this far and wide.(snip)

You call the video disturbing and the acts in the video cruel, but you don't offer even a vague description of what occurs in the video. In the US large quantities of livestock are slaughtered for food and other products every day in ways that would result in immediate arrest on cruelty charges if the same was done to a species that's normally utilized as a pet in the US.IF animals are subjected to prolonged discomfort or pain in the video, I don't care to watch it. But I can't legitimately express my objection because you offer so little detail about the alleged abuses.You link to an organization with an acronym in its URL, with no explanation of acronym's source. Do you expect me to research this organization with so little information in your post? Does the organization object to any utilization of animals, like PETA, or a more moderate viewpoint that allows meat consumption and leather/fur production if the animals aren't subjected to prolonged discomfort?I've read so many reports that online partitions are give much less credibility than actual paper petitions, which in turn are often ineffective when decisions are made by corporate or private entities. If the offending people are even made aware of our objections I doubt our opinions would make any difference. What would make a difference would be the offenders having diffuculty selling the products that result from their actions.I consider that only slightly more likely that the popular opinion about cattle in India reducing beef consumption in the US.

Not that it really matters but since this is such a disturbing matter I don't want to let any detail slide uncorrected. This video is not 14 months old. The same footage (the most horrible part) was included in another animal rights video posted on youtube in January 2009. Law to protect endangered wild animals has been in existence and enforced in China for decades. Many criminals who hunted wild animals (tiger, elephant, etc.) for profit received a bullet in the head. But a law to protect all animals is still embarrassingly lacking. But it's being worked on.The drafting of The Chinese Animal Protection Law began in late 2008. As of now the drafting has completed and so has, I believe, the expert evaluation phase. It's at the point of being submitted to hopefully be instated as law soon. Every now and then there are animal cruelty incidences that get exposed and stir wide spread social uproar in China. Such as the 2009 massacre of more than 30,000 dogs in Sanxi Province due to an rabbi outbreak, or a youtube video of a woman killing kittens for fun in a very specific and VERY brutal way. They all caused nationwide rage and helped the cause of the animal protection law. In 2009 China Small Animal Protection Association responded to what happened in this particular video with public statements and events calling for awareness.It's fair to point out that vast differences in cultures can make one man's daily routine as another one's taboo. But humanitarianism should draw bottom lines and let that be shared by all. What happened in this video is way, way, way below any possible such lines.

To my current knowledge, it's the only substantial group with even a smidgin of polital clout.

And what knowledge is that?Bob

Such humanitarianism.... I posted a link to this over at Flightsim.com and it lasted all of 8 mins before they deleted it.

Did you get Nel's permission to post it, as you did Tom's?How about at the other sites that removed it?