Re: NGX impending release: Are we there yet?

[rgamurot 1]

I'm sure real world pilots disconnect the a/t when hand flying, but it's going to be easier for them to manage the speed correctly because they can physically feel the throttle adjustments.

On the contrary, since the speed adjustments are very small and we are trained to ignore any physical sensations we have, we do it the same way you do in the sim; either by sound or instruments. Mind you there is also control feel, but for anyone who is instrument rated (like all airline pilots) you ignore any acceleration forces because it could be deceiving. In fact, on the B717, the engines are so far behind the flight deck, you can't hear them period; it's just air noise. And the controls are already sluggish because of their design that control effectiveness isn't reliable either. Those pilots do use the engine instrumentation the whole time.As far as it being easier, right after disconnect it is since the throttles are where they're supposed to be, but after that, since most jets have some form of engine computer, it's no different than the sim...sort of.

I was under the impression that the autothrottle does a better job of managing the speed on approach...

Not always. Some are actually a bit slow but not slow enough to be a problem. Once again referring to the B717, the autothrottle servos actually can't keep up with the inputs from the computer during the whole descent. Most pilots (at least for Hawaiian) will manually control the throttles from T/D.

As for myself, I don't have the coordination skills to manage both the throttle and yoke on the final, and even if I did it would be very difficult to practice in FSX without the necessary sensory stimuli.

If you are referring to that 'seat of the pants' feeling, don't worry about it. Most flight schools use a non-motion simulator to help with instrument training. The reason why is if you were in the real aircraft, it would actually be harder because you would have to ignore all of those sensory stimuli. Believe it or not, when you're flying in the clouds, you even have to ignore visual cues from outside the aircraft which is way harder than it sounds. You just focus on your instruments and ignore everything else. Doing this in a sim in easy. Doing this in turbulence is a nightmare! Something my instrument instructor told me was, "If it didn't happen on the instruments, it didn't happen".To close up on the original subject, if you watch the eyes of a pilot with a bit of experience (depending on how often they fly it could be as little as 100hrs), you'll notice a pattern at landing. They look at 2 things (assuming a visual approach not in a B717); the runway and the airspeed. Just keep an eye on these 2 things any you should know what to do with everything else. If you look out the windscreen and your aiming point is moving up (meaning you're low) add power. If it's moving down, throttle back and pitch for airspeed. If you drop the nose, it won't work. You'll just pick up airspeed and either still be too high, or be so fast you overshoot anyway. Keep it at whatever attitude you need to hold the airspeed and the plane will settle onto the glide path. It's a bit harder with spool time in jets but trust me, you're faster than the A/T servos.

[NGXfanatic 85]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Ryan, I learned alot! I take it you are a pilot for Hawaiian on the 717, I envy you! You must have plenty of landing experience with the kind of island hopping you do, shame that there is no PMDG 717 in the works, since I'm sure their experience from developing the MD-11 could prove beneficial. To follow up, I have done a few practice landings with my CH throttle set to low or halfway up and I was able to successfully disable a/t at the flare, move the throttle to idle, and engage reverse thrust appropriately. Thanks everyone for your suggestions, I have removed one annoying machination in my process during a very busy moment, that is for sure!

[belach 0]

As for myself, I don't have the coordination skills to manage both the throttle and yoke on the final, and even if I did it would be very difficult to practice in FSX

It isn't as hard as you think. One tip when your flying is to practise just get your plane straight and level without the help of the A/P or A/T - this is where power, pitch and trim come to play togheter. When you got that down, try to do the same thing but this time with speed restrictions - say to yourself I'm not going to exceed or get below 250kts. Now, do the same but when climbing and descending - choose a speed and hold it during the procedure. After this is where the fun begins, try do climb/descent at a fixed vertical speed. Try to climb at for exampel 250kts with 1000fpm or something.This is what I did to learn how to properly use pitch, power and trim. Now, I haven't had any real flight training - keep that in mind and I think people in this forum can chip in with better advice. But again, this is how I learned and it works for me. Oh, one more thing. If the above is hard to do in a PMDG 747, it is adviceable to do it in a small cessna before you move on to the 747. This is because jet engine's spool time and the thrust avaialbe which requires thinking in advance - (juding by the instruments) when to apply more thrust, pitch change etc - and making small changes. Lastly, you can also try to remeber the power settings during your practise session. On what % was N1 when I was straight and level? etc. Just remember that these figures change as weight and many other factors change, so they aren't fixed. This will make it easier for you to set thrust at a level that is apporopraite for the type procedure you're training for - until of course you get a feel for it.Believe me, when you achieve to manually handle the throttle down the final approach, the feeling is much better than letting A/T do the job. But I don't know, the choice is always yours.I hope this helps you some way. I'm not that good in writing tutorials.Rob Belach

[markadeane 274]

I started out by leaving the autopilot and autothrust in until short final, then I gradually took the autopilot out earlier and earlier each flight (maybe 100ft higher each time) until I was consistently shooting ILS approaches (including the intercept) by hand. THEN I started to take the autothrust out 100ft higher each time until I was manually flying the whole procedure. As you go through this process, watch what the autothrust is doing at each stage of the approach: how much thrust is needed to fly the ILS at 160kts with Flap 28 and gear down? How much more thrust does the AT add when you go to flap 30 at VApp? Do the same with the autopilot, what pitch attitude does the aircraft fly at down the ILS? After a handful of flights you start to memorize these figures and the whole thing becomes so second-nature that you wonder why it seemed so hard in the first place!BTW, there are some nice easy-to-remember pitch/thrust 'rules of thumb' for manual flying in the B737, I'll do a post about these once the NGX hits the street so you can all try them out.

[penguin2001 0]

I'm sure real world pilots disconnect the a/t when hand flying, but it's going to be easier for them to manage the speed correctly because they can physically feel the throttle adjustments.

It's actually a good idea when you disconnect the A/P to also disconnect the Auto-Throttle at the same time. The reason being - thrust changes on jet engines mounted under the wings will cause pitch changes. When the A/T increase thrust the nose pitches up and vice versa. So if you were hand flying the approach with A/T still connected, you can start to pitch around as you compensate against the pitch changes cause by the auto thrust inputs. So that's why it's a good idea when hand flying, to also disconnect the thrust to keep things smooth and predictable and you don't end up 'fighting the automatics'. A really good example of thrust-pitch relationship is that in a Go-Around, you apply so much thrust quickly that the nose will actually pitch up to more than the correct attitude. That is why in a Go-Around in the 737 you actually push forward on the controls to prevent over rotation.

[belach 0]

BTW, there are some nice easy-to-remember pitch/thrust 'rules of thumb' for manual flying in the B737, I'll do a post about these once the NGX hits the street so you can all try them out.

I will of course be intrested in this. So please remeber to post them! :)Rob Belach

[Goof 38]

Somehow there's a big silence around PMDG... I hope they will give us any updates this week...Alexander Marx

[divemaster08 0]

I can tell you that in my very short experience in an NG sim, I turned the A/T off for my approach. The Instructor told me to do that as I constantly adjusted my trims so the A/T was having a hard time to correct my corrections!Watch it here!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAfo8jADu4IAlso yes I know my landing was bad! But I would say i "firmly planted" the aircraft. :( Apparently when you do go visual, you dont look up! remain on the FD!

[jose88 50]

Good posts about approaches, a/t etc... thanks guys!But, no news about BETA! lol

[FS Hub 132]

13:39 KADDUUUNNGTRR aaaahahah laughed my &@($* off about that. Not about your landing but just about that moment:P Awesome...

[rgamurot 1]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Ryan, I learned alot! I take it you are a pilot for Hawaiian on the 717, I envy you! You must have plenty of landing experience with the kind of island hopping you do, shame that there is no PMDG 717 in the works, since I'm sure their experience from developing the MD-11 could prove beneficial. To follow up, I have done a few practice landings with my CH throttle set to low or halfway up and I was able to successfully disable a/t at the flare, move the throttle to idle, and engage reverse thrust appropriately. Thanks everyone for your suggestions, I have removed one annoying machination in my process during a very busy moment, that is for sure!

I'd envy myself if i were one too. I must confess I do not fly for hawaiian but many of my friends do. I'm stuck at 280 hours so I don't think they'd even look at my resume. The biggest thing I've flown is an Aztec. I am solely relaying the 717 information second hand other than what I experienced in the sim in Seattle. But, yes; they on average get 8 landings a day. 4 round trips a day but sometimes they go to Hilo from HNL via Kahului and vice versa.

[Guest TBM930]

I'd envy myself if i were one too. I must confess I do not fly for hawaiian but many of my friends do. I'm stuck at 280 hours so I don't think they'd even look at my resume. The biggest thing I've flown is an Aztec. I am solely relaying the 717 information second hand other than what I experienced in the sim in Seattle. But, yes; they on average get 8 landings a day. 4 round trips a day but sometimes they go to Hilo from HNL via Kahului and vice versa.

Ditto Ryan. Canadian pilot stuck at 312 hours and the heaviest thing I have flown is also the Piper Aztec E (50 hours on it)!

[CLett737 14]

Perhaps the ngx is already in beta. They were not going to announce it before it actually happened.....

[ahsmatt7 1,213]

Ditto Ryan. Canadian pilot stuck at 312 hours and the heaviest thing I have flown is also the Piper Aztec E (50 hours on it)!

Its not the size of the plane that matters.....its the QOL that comes with it.

[thefsxflyer 1]

Its not the size of the plane that matters.....its the QOL that comes with it.

I was gonna say a joke but maybe we should keep it PG rated lol