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briansommers

When you file IFR do you always have to fly DP/STAR?

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I was talking to a pilot about 10 yrs ago and he used to fly a Baron around IFR and he told me he was never asked by ATC to fly a DP/STAR.If I'm trying to simulate an air taxi/charter ops. Would you always fly the DP/STAR if you filed IFR. I'm talking like planes like B58, C208, Duke, C340, BN2, DHC6 etcI imagine you would always when flying something like a JS41? or not necessarily?

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I was talking to a pilot about 10 yrs ago and he used to fly a Baron around IFR and he told me he was never asked by ATC to fly a DP/STAR.If I'm trying to simulate an air taxi/charter ops. Would you always fly the DP/STAR if you filed IFR. I'm talking like planes like B58, C208, Duke, C340, BN2, DHC6 etcI imagine you would always when flying something like a JS41? or not necessarily?
As another Baron driver I rarely if ever have gotten DP/STAR's and the few times I have gotten them rarely even get to the first waypoint before vectored . I think I have only flown one DP procedure in 21 years of flying (from Long Beach, Ca.), and have never flown a Star but have been given a handful in clearances which again became vectors before even reaching the first waypoint.My local airport for the last 6 years did have a departure procedure till recently which was given for every takeoff. The procedure said takeoff and follow radar vectors.....

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As another Baron driver I rarely if ever have gotten DP/STAR's and the few times I have gotten them rarely even get to the first waypoint before vectored . I think I have only flown one DP procedure in 21 years of flying (from Long Beach, Ca.), and have never flown a Star but have been given a handful in clearances which again became vectors before even reaching the first waypoint.My local airport for the last 6 years did have a departure procedure till recently which was given for every takeoff. The procedure said takeoff and follow radar vectors.....
Willow Run used to constantly start us off on a star but as Geof stated they usually only required 1-2 WPs. in a B58 Baron.My charter pilot buddy said it was because he made them mad once and they always required him to fly at least 1-2 WPs before allows us to proceed "as filed" after that. :(

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In the UK, ATC will return a submited flight plan for correction if it doesn't use a SID at aerodrome which has published SIDs.Requirement for STARs vary with aerodrome. At Heathrow, arriving aircraft using the ATS Route System will normally be required to use STARS. Other aircraft will normally be required to route via one the the holding points that terminate STARs.I say normally because ATS can permit variations, for example at less busy periods, but aircraft must expect to be cleared using SIDs and STARS.UK airspace is relatively small and busy and the use of standard routes helps keep the traffic flowing. Also SIDs are also the noise preferential routes. This constains ATS's ability to authorise diversions from them. A rule of thumbe seems to be that the aircraft must be 3000ft or above.In addition to SIDs and STARS, there is a Standard Route Document (SRD) that lists the ATS preferred routes between pairs of airports and between airports and entry/exit points of UK airspace. They are not mandatory put an aircraft requesting a non-standard route can generally expect to be delayed

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Interesting indeed! Wouldn't it depend though on where you take off from and where you landing to as well? For example say I'm fly a C340 out of KSEA to KPDX , etc I would think the requirement would be fairly high then, correct?Then what about say a JS41 - I would think the requirement would even be higher, yes? or doesn't it matter what I'm flying.. except of course big jets, etc..

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Hello.Thinking particularly of the UK, but everywhere else too I suppose, how do aircraft with different airspeeds fit together into such procedures. I imagine arriving at or departing from Heathrow in a Piper Cub could get quite stressful if you're in danger of holding up a lot of bigger, faster commercial flights. What provision do controllers make for such conflicts? Do they just delay your arrival or departure until a suitable slot comes free or are you more likely to be given vectors keeping you away from other traffic?Cheers,Dave

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It does often matter what you are flying, since a good many procedures have specific criteria the aircraft has to meet; speeds, climb rates your aircraft can manage, and that sort of thing, sometimes even how much noise the aircraft makes can be a factor if there are noise monitoring stations at or around the airport, as a SID will often steer aircraft away from residential areas amongst other things.Al

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Personally I've gotten clearance with more published DPs than I expected, and this is out of "smaller" reliever airports 30+ from the nearest major airport. Typically just published obstacle avoidance procedures.That being said, more often than not you'll be flying instructions given by the tower or delivery (when at uncontrolled fields) unless somewhere like KATL, KCLT, etc. The busier areas use procedures heavily. Point in case STARS/SIDS are used to take some of the weight off of controller's shoulders, so expect to fly them when flying into/out of busy areas.

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It does often matter what you are flying, since a good many procedures have specific criteria the aircraft has to meet; speeds, climb rates your aircraft can manage, and that sort of thing, sometimes even how much noise the aircraft makes can be a factor if there are noise monitoring stations at or around the airport, as a SID will often steer aircraft away from residential areas amongst other things.Al
Ah... just not paying attention. After all it is Friday afternoon.I see it now (NATS charts). Different IAPs for different categories of aircraft, and some SIDs specifying a minimum climb rate. Thanks Al.D

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Hello.Thinking particularly of the UK, but everywhere else too I suppose, how do aircraft with different airspeeds fit together into such procedures. I imagine arriving at or departing from Heathrow in a Piper Cub could get quite stressful if you're in danger of holding up a lot of bigger, faster commercial flights. What provision do controllers make for such conflicts? Do they just delay your arrival or departure until a suitable slot comes free or are you more likely to be given vectors keeping you away from other traffic?Cheers,Dave
A Piper Cub or smilar just isn't allowed at Heathrow:"Flights for recreational, commemorative, charity and record breaking purposes, light twin engined private aircraft and all light single engined aircraft will not be permitted to use the airport. "Light aircraft" shall be defined as any aircraft that has a maximum gross take-off weight of 12,500lb (5,670 kg) or less."lb (5,670 kg) or less."Also in order to use Heathrow you need a landing slot from the airport in addition to ATC clearance. This Is PPR only and must be made in writing not more than 10 days and not less than 24 hours before the proposed flight. Also the aircraft operator needs a contract with one of the airport's Handling Agents.http://www.ead.euroc..._2011-05-05.pdf

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A Piper Cub or smilar just isn't allowed at Heathrow:"Flights for recreational, commemorative, charity and record breaking purposes, light twin engined private aircraft and all light single engined aircraft will not be permitted to use the airport. "Light aircraft" shall be defined as any aircraft that has a maximum gross take-off weight of 12,500lb (5,670 kg) or less."lb (5,670 kg) or less."Also in order to use Heathrow you need a landing slot from the airport in addition to ATC clearance. This Is PPR only and must be made in writing not more than 10 days and not less than 24 hours before the proposed flight. Also the aircraft operator needs a contract with one of the airport's Handling Agents.http://www.ead.euroc..._2011-05-05.pdf
Oh!Shan't be doing that again then...

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Hi.>>If I'm trying to simulate an air taxi/charter ops. Would you always fly the DP/STAR if you filed IFR. I'm talking like planes like B58, C208, Duke, C340, BN2, DHC6 etc<<You may not always fly them, but you should Always be ready for them. I always recommend having them, DP/STARs, in your Flight Plan, and you can get them in any IFR certified aircraft. I've gotten them in a C152. There are many airports where you Have to use a DP, there is no other way to get off the ground. You can also get them in the Pop up IFR, Tower to Tower etc. Many factors enter in the decision making process, a lot depends on the traffic, the confidence level the ATC has in you, if they (ATC) want the training / practice etc. I would recommend flying (using) vs. not flying them. TV

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For charter ops (part 135) most operators are required to fly the departure procedure out of airports unless controllers can provide vectors.

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Many airlines charter airlines or Part 121 commercial scheduled have to fly departures and arrivals out of major airports depending on the procedures available stated, etc. Sometimes it can depend on noise abatement regulations though which are very common in the UK which means your most likely always going to fly a departure out of a UK airport.

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