One Possible Reason For The Delay

[rsrandazzo 6,353]

Gents-I am going to expand on something that Ryan steered away from in order to be polite:All of us at PMDG are Simmers who consume many add-on scenery and aircraft packages. We do this because we truly like the hobby. As fellow consumers we have been seeing a trend in the add-on community for awhile now where developers release a product that is clearly not ready for use by customers, then they produce 20 service packs that fix the things that should have been working in the first place- and then they point to all the service packs as "proof of excellent customer service."Really?!This is the simming version of giving a 5 star rating to a restaurant that finally cooks your meal correctly after you have sent it back to the kitchen 19 times...A few weeks ago we even had a fellow complain to technical support that we do not release enough service packs for our products. :( As Ryan said- there will be some things that slip through the cracks and we will have to circle back with fixes. That is the nature of software and *yes* it keeps some of us awake at night- especially when we are this close to release. But if **I** were going to be buying the PMDG 737NGX I would want to be certain that the developers had the thing functioning correctly, and that they were not going to spend weeks making excuses for things that clearly don't work only to try and fix them in a blizzard of service packs to come later on.At PMDG we want you to feel comfortable buying any product the moment it comes through the hangar doors. We aren't seeking perfection- we just refuse to fall into this pattern of "release early, get the money, then issue fixes while calling it good customer service."Because... We don't like being treated that way when we are customers... so Why should we do that to you, as our customer? :(

[Guest sssspecialista]

Gents-I am going to expand on something that Ryan steered away from in order to be polite:All of us at PMDG are Simmers who consume many add-on scenery and aircraft packages. We do this because we truly like the hobby. As fellow consumers we have been seeing a trend in the add-on community for awhile now where developers release a product that is clearly not ready for use by customers, then they produce 20 service packs that fix the things that should have been working in the first place- and then they point to all the service packs as "proof of excellent customer service."Really?!This is the simming version of giving a 5 star rating to a restaurant that finally cooks your meal correctly after you have sent it back to the kitchen 19 times...A few weeks ago we even had a fellow complain to technical support that we do not release enough service packs for our products. :( As Ryan said- there will be some things that slip through the cracks and we will have to circle back with fixes. That is the nature of software and *yes* it keeps some of us awake at night- especially when we are this close to release. But if **I** were going to be buying the PMDG 737NGX I would want to be certain that the developers had the thing functioning correctly, and that they were not going to spend weeks making excuses for things that clearly don't work only to try and fix them in a blizzard of service packs to come later on.At PMDG we want you to feel comfortable buying any product the moment it comes through the hangar doors. We aren't seeking perfection- we just refuse to fall into this pattern of "release early, get the money, then issue fixes while calling it good customer service."Because... We don't like being treated that way when we are customers... so Why should we do that to you, as our customer? :(

Bull's eye

[denthibbe 18]

To RSR and all the PMDG members,I had promised myself never to react on any NGX-when-will-it-be-released-thread, but I guess it just couldn't be helped...I truly sometimes wonder where you guys keep finding the energy to come back again everytime and answer those same ever-coming-back silly complaints about the plane not being released yet...I would have given up a LOOOOONG time ago, really!Sorry for making this thread even longer ! :(

[Cras 6]

At PMDG we want you to feel comfortable buying any product the moment it comes through the hangar doors. We aren't seeking perfection- we just refuse to fall into this pattern of "release early, get the money, then issue fixes while calling it good customer service."Because... We don't like being treated that way when we are customers... so Why should we do that to you, as our customer? :(

So you don't like it when devs release products and rely on a service pack or two to get it right,But apparently you have no problems with devs releasing a plethera of coming soon updates over a 12 month period and responding to those who bring that to attention with rude comments.

[PHXMD-11 86]

So you don't like it when devs release products and rely on a service pack or two to get it right,But apparently you have no problems with devs releasing a plethera of coming soon updates over a 12 month period and responding to those who bring that to attention with rude comments.

Any good company knows that releasing complete products is good business and good customer service. They simply do not want to give us an incomplete product. It is also good business to keep customers informed of what's going on. If a product needs to be pushed back, there is nothing a developer can do. Honestly, I'd rather have Robert telling us what's going on sometimes rather not at all.

[MorsAbAlto 19]

So you don't like it when devs release products and rely on a service pack or two to get it right,But apparently you have no problems with devs releasing a plethera of coming soon updates over a 12 month period and responding to those who bring that to attention with rude comments.

Scott,it has something to do with how this was brought to attention, don't you think? Many of those "reminders" have been little more than snide, gleeful rants.Also, coming to the forum after a long day only to read stupid BS about missed deadlines and misplaced rivets and wrong angles isn't much fun.

[Cras 6]

Scott,it has something to do with how this was brought to attention, don't you think? Many of those "reminders" have been little more than snide, gleeful rants.Also, coming to the forum after a long day only to read stupid BS about missed deadlines and misplaced rivets and wrong angles isn't much fun.

I get that, and I don't have anything against normal posters like you and me voicing that. I too get annoyed by rivet counters, and the same question over and over again, but PMDG is asking for our money in exchange for this product, and when I see them respond to these questions in either rude, or arrogant, or just flat out mean ways, that bothers me. The economy sucks, most developers for FSX suck, releasing bug-riddled garbage at stupidly high prices and then offer garbage support, so when a product finally comes our way that seems worth it, and am ready to fork over the 80 or so dollars to buy this product, amost twice as much as a regular video game, or several blu-ray movies, or even just a fun night out, I don't want to be treated like crap in the process.I understand human nature an all that, but there is just no sense in attacking the client base like that. Like I said in an earlier post that I am sure got deleted, if this was for say Orbiter, and RSR and co was just doing this for the fun of it and going to release it for free, then their responses make perfectly good sense. But they are not. They have ramped up this hype for the sole purpose of capitvating the audience and preventing them from going elsewhere so they can capitalize on their development.So I like you find it annoying with people asking about the varients included in the package, people trying to answer these questions, asking about if this will be there, or why is the tail not looking right, or the colour of the MFDs seem off, but I am even more annoyed when the PMDG guys come on and disrespect them all. And for that I now have very little respect for PMDG. For how they treat people who long helped out here, how they cover it up saying it wasn't their fault, not essentially not acting like grown up developers but rather like the petty children that so many of these FSX/9 developers seem to model their behaviour after.

[MorsAbAlto 19]

Alright, you got compelling points.But still, there are a few people that are just asking to get the finger with their disruptive behaviour and they deserve just as much respect as they give. The old idiom of "You reap what you sow" comes to mind...Hopefully, once the NGX releases the tension will evaporate and the mood will swing around.

[ZachLW 37]

I get that, and I don't have anything against normal posters like you and me voicing that. I too get annoyed by rivet counters, and the same question over and over again, but PMDG is asking for our money in exchange for this product, and when I see them respond to these questions in either rude, or arrogant, or just flat out mean ways, that bothers me. The economy sucks, most developers for FSX suck, releasing bug-riddled garbage at stupidly high prices and then offer garbage support, so when a product finally comes our way that seems worth it, and am ready to fork over the 80 or so dollars to buy this product, amost twice as much as a regular video game, or several blu-ray movies, or even just a fun night out, I don't want to be treated like crap in the process.I understand human nature an all that, but there is just no sense in attacking the client base like that. Like I said in an earlier post that I am sure got deleted, if this was for say Orbiter, and RSR and co was just doing this for the fun of it and going to release it for free, then their responses make perfectly good sense. But they are not. They have ramped up this hype for the sole purpose of capitvating the audience and preventing them from going elsewhere so they can capitalize on their development.So I like you find it annoying with people asking about the varients included in the package, people trying to answer these questions, asking about if this will be there, or why is the tail not looking right, or the colour of the MFDs seem off, but I am even more annoyed when the PMDG guys come on and disrespect them all. And for that I now have very little respect for PMDG. For how they treat people who long helped out here, how they cover it up saying it wasn't their fault, not essentially not acting like grown up developers but rather like the petty children that so many of these FSX/9 developers seem to model their behaviour after.

I'm having trouble finding the rudeness in the devs post so far. I can recall only one time when a PMDG representative was actually rude. Though I can't recall the name, I do remember which thread it was in. On second thought, I do remember which developer it was... That being said, the rudest comment so far in this thread has been the following and another on the first page, since we're apparantly keeping count now:

So you don't like it when devs release products and rely on a service pack or two to get it right,But apparently you have no problems with devs releasing a plethera of coming soon updates over a 12 month period and responding to those who bring that to attention with rude comments.

Hmmm. Can't remember who posted that one... :( I find RSR's/Ryan's/etc's replies to be pretty darn polite. Especially considering half of the junk they're replying to. I also like that we can be in rapport directly with the developers during the developement process. I feel some folks are taking this for granted and abusing it.

[Bakern 31]

I find RSR's/Ryan's/etc's replies to be pretty darn polite. Especially considering half of the junk they're replying to. I also like that we can be in rapport directly with the developers during the developement process. I feel some folks are taking this for granted and abusing it.

So true, so true. :(

[simon747 185]

"release early, get the money, then issue fixes while calling it good customer service."

Lol, I had to laugh at the first part of this...'the release early stage' has passed way long ago, but thats ok, you guys want to get it right, which is a good thing.

[Yankee Clipper 0]

The manuals we're selling are real life manuals straight from Boeing - the part of the manual that is specific to the simulation is going to come with the product and will obviously be up to date. Part of the idea with releasing them early too was to simulate what really happens when a pilot goes to training when switching to a new aircraft - they get a box just like this filled with manuals and charts and they spend months studying prior to actually showing up at their training class date.Ding ding, we have a winner!

Clunk Clunk, we have a kool-aid drinker!Jack Hancock

[Cras 6]

I'm having trouble finding the rudeness in the devs post so far. I can recall only one time when a PMDG representative was actually rude. Though I can't recall the name, I do remember which thread it was in. On second thought, I do remember which developer it was... That being said, the rudest comment so far in this thread has been the following and another on the first page, since we're apparantly keeping count now:Hmmm. Can't remember who posted that one... :( I find RSR's/Ryan's/etc's replies to be pretty darn polite. Especially considering half of the junk they're replying to. I also like that we can be in rapport directly with the developers during the developement process. I feel some folks are taking this for granted and abusing it.

Then either you are visiting a different board than I am, oryou just don't read. Don't care which itis. If it was a once shot deal, then I could understand, but too often have Iseen reactions from PMDG staff that I almost cannot believe they would everrespond in such a way if this "rapport" as you champion was one doneface to face. And to think that it issome sort of luxury this relationship of this board with the devs to be foundnowhere else on the web, then you are sadly mistaken. There are plenty of communities out therewhere the interaction with the developers, even during the development processfar exceed anything you could ever hope to find in on AVSIM, except for maybeBryan York or the guys at Hi-fi Sim, who are by far thegold/silver/platinum/cosmic standard if we are to stay in FSX/9. Is this the sole archetype? No of course not, there have been plenty of times I find the PMDG crewmore than helpful in the exchange, what they did to settle the texturedisappearing was a great help, only one amongst others, however too often, evenif it is a minority of the time, I see responses made in poor judgment. I amnot someone looking for a fight either, not one to be easily offended, but theway PMDG has handle this boondoggle, which was entirely of their own making,has been lacking, and they should have done better. And I know I am not theonly one thinking this.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

...or we could make this like most other things where the consumer is just the end goal and the development cycle isn't at all public and then *poof* - here's the new product, go have fun (we'll fix the egregious errors for this one, but if you want actual service packs, just buy the new one when it comes out)!The fact that we can post here and discuss the development of a product with the group creating said product is a privilege few other groups enjoy, unless you somehow get randomly selected for their focus group, and even then it's somehow masked as to what the end goal truly is. Just this upcoming Tuesday I have a meeting with a developer to tell me about all of the new features of the release that week so they can tell me what's new, not necessarily what my thoughts are on the whole matter, and I'm considered part of the inside crew because I'm certified by them to teach the stuff.All I see when I come on these forums is a bunch of whining by the new guys and the old guys alike (it was pointed out in another thread that me pointing out aforementioned whining is also whining, but I could really care less - this whining has a constructive point...), and it's really sickening. Everyone here needs to step back and take a look at how you would handle a situation like this, while being realistic:How would you like to:-Place yourself under an arbitrary deadline, just to meet a goal, even if it wasn't ready by then? This isn't some collegiate dissertation where there is a clear flow to the end goal, this is groundbreaking advances in simulation technology, so you can't just say "hey, we'll be done at this point."-Respond to a bunch of whining that what you've worked so hard on for so long doesn't have the right X, Y or Z, when you got the specs from the real world source? Seriously. Listen to some of the comments on here. What expertise do most people have here on the subjects?-Sit here and answer the same questions and "challenges" from the peanut gallery? It gets old, really quickly. As an instructor, I'm not sure how I don't club a baby seal when someone asks me a question that I just answered in great detail not minutes before, but my reaction is sometimes less than perfectly diplomatic (not exactly 100% patient, but not disrespectful).As I've pointed out time and time again, would you rather them just shut up and not say anything? They've done that from time to time and what do they get? People asking and begging for updates, and then bashing them in the update posts when they finally release information because they're saying they're trying to make it better. Seems a little backhanded doesn't it?Again, I'll reiterate that they truly owe us nothing - either in the form of an aircraft or information. None of us have paid them a dime for this NGX aircraft. Our prior purchases mean absolutely nothing in regards to this release (and this is coming from someone who has everything currently listed on their site, with the obvious exception of the NGX). Argue all you want, but there's absolutely no binding language or agreement anywhere that says they have to give us anything, so to sit here and complain or spout demands about something you don't like (lack of info, time of release, or anything along those lines) really just shows you how petulant some people can be here. You all have no grounds on which to stand.Sit back.Relax.Go read something.Teach yourself an approach type you've never tried before.Go learn how to fly with simulated, human ATC....or better yet, go learn something so that you can help someone out next time they come in here and post a question. That's the reason I keep coming back, in case you were wondering up there in the 3rd paragraph. Why do I keep jumping into these threads? Because I feel like attempting to help some people step back from a situation and just glance at the big picture for a second. It's been done for me several times here, so I'm in here attempting the same for others.As far as people being disrespectful, perception is a huge part of that. It is very difficult to understand tone through text, so certain things come across the wrong way. Instead of assuming people are all out to get you, give them the benefit of the doubt, and beyond that, perhaps their response to something had a little merit to it, or maybe they were just having a bad day. Everyone has them. Give them a break, and relax.

[SWA737 0]

I get that, and I don't have anything against normal posters like you and me voicing that. I too get annoyed by rivet counters, and the same question over and over again, but PMDG is asking for our money in exchange for this product, and when I see them respond to these questions in either rude, or arrogant, or just flat out mean ways, that bothers me. The economy sucks, most developers for FSX suck, releasing bug-riddled garbage at stupidly high prices and then offer garbage support, so when a product finally comes our way that seems worth it, and am ready to fork over the 80 or so dollars to buy this product, amost twice as much as a regular video game, or several blu-ray movies, or even just a fun night out, I don't want to be treated like crap in the process.I understand human nature an all that, but there is just no sense in attacking the client base like that. Like I said in an earlier post that I am sure got deleted, if this was for say Orbiter, and RSR and co was just doing this for the fun of it and going to release it for free, then their responses make perfectly good sense. But they are not. They have ramped up this hype for the sole purpose of capitvating the audience and preventing them from going elsewhere so they can capitalize on their development.So I like you find it annoying with people asking about the varients included in the package, people trying to answer these questions, asking about if this will be there, or why is the tail not looking right, or the colour of the MFDs seem off, but I am even more annoyed when the PMDG guys come on and disrespect them all. And for that I now have very little respect for PMDG. For how they treat people who long helped out here, how they cover it up saying it wasn't their fault, not essentially not acting like grown up developers but rather like the petty children that so many of these FSX/9 developers seem to model their behaviour after.

+1