So when has it became policy that Avsim Staff determines that a price point is really off the mark? Comparing the T182T with a J-41, a stratocruiser, cub, etc, is like comparing a banana to a stove bolt. The G1000 alone in this aircraft is the most advanced G1000 for entertainment there is bar none. Some add-on G1000's cost exactly the same amount as this entire aircraft package and do less. And there is an awful, awful lot going on it that simulation alone that is beyond any of your aforementioned products (with no disrespect to any of them) If you are not able to appreciate what it is and what it can do, it is a great disservice for you to paint a picture that it isn't worth it just because it isn't something you would typically fly. Its value is appropriate for a person that can appreciate the complexity that this aircraft offers and although you may not think it is as complex as a 737, it can do some things that even a 737 cannot do. The fact that you call it a "fancy gauge" tells me that this is not an aircraft for you, but why do you assume it isn't a value to someone else? You are entitled to your opinion, but just like us that have the "Commercial" moniker placed on us, you have the Avsim Staff Moniker and I do not appreciate a public statement with an Avsim moniker that says anybodies product is good, bad, indifferent or too high priced. You should remain neutral. That is for the customer to decide and they simply cannot lose a dime because of our refund policy which is #1 in the industry.Jim Rhoads

I'm not assuming it isn't of value to anyone else, or even myself, I'm simply expressing my opinion on relative pricing (one which others had too), and last time I checked I was pretty sure I'm allowed to have an opinon, even on reviews. I merely write some reviews for Avsim, I didn't sell my soul to the Devil.But this is not a review, it is a discussion thread, and as such I'm adding to the discussion by expressing an opinion. Moreover, I suspect you are perhaps crediting me with some kind of omnipotence I don't posses, and failing to credit others with intelligence I know they do, in suggesting that if I express an opinion, it would somehow emit a Svengali-like power over the internet which would prevent people from being able to make up their own minds about what they would like to spend their own money on! This is especially true given that there is the well-known Flight 1 policy of returns, whereby anyone can effectively judge for themselves if they think a product is good value at no risk to their finances.With regard to what I would or would not buy or prefer to fly, if you look at preceding posts in this thread, you might also notice that I have actually tried to buy the product (several times in fact, still with no joy) but am prevented from doing so by some mystery glitch. I've bought a lot of Flight 1's products over the years, off the top of my head that includes: Alphasim B-24, Flight Cessna 441 Conquest, Bear Studios Chengdu J10, ATR 72-500, iFly 737 (FS9 and FSX), Super 80, UIVER DC-2, FS Panel Studio, Helitraffic 2009, Instant Scenery, DoDosim Bell 206, Cierva Autogyro, Golden Age Stearman, EZDOK Camera, Instant Mission Maker, Ultimate Terrain Europe (and probably some others I've forgotten as well), I like them and I've frequently said so on these forums, but you have never rounded on me saying that I ought to remain neutral when in praise of products. So am I allowed to have no opinion, or merely one which suits?Incidentally, I've never taken Flight 1 up on their policy of refunds either, keeping everything I've ever bought from there, and that would probably include that Cessna if I could actually buy the thing LOL. What that tells you, is that if someone wants something, they will pay the price, and my own personal idea of relative value is unlikely to change that, for me, or anyone else.Al

I know who it was directed to, and it sure as heck wasn't only for Chock and the staff or it'd be done over PM. You're kind of whispering so loudly that our ears are ringing. I wasn't distorting your message, please don't divert attention to the argument itself by saying such things. You were clearly saying the aircraft in question weren't comparable - but some Avsim staffers, I and presumably a lot of other people think they are, at least as long as you price yourself into that kind of competition bracket. Frankly if Avsim staffers are afraid to speak their minds then they'd end up losing their standing as one of the simming world's most respected independent reporters and reviewers. Being afraid to speak their mind would be corrupt. Flight1 buys advertising space here I think. It'd be a shame if pressure from F1 would keep Avsim's staff from speaking their minds, as eventually it'd lead to their loss of cred and demise. Oh and BTW I'm not in any way implying that F1 does put pressure on Avsim, but it'd be a shame if they did.

No diversion has been created by anyone with the possible exception of yourself.In fact the aircraft comparisons drawn are not truly comparable if you exclude an arbitrary pricepoint.I've never observed Avsim staff operate in fear but I do not adhere to the premise that they are infallible.I stand by my earlier statements that Avsim Staff has at least the same responsibility toward devs as commercial devs have. Frankly Avsim staff is not intimidated by advertising dollars or the scope of certain devs standing so we can put that fantasy to bed.Your denial of the inference actually brings the shame full circle to yourself.:(

No diversion has been created by anyone with the possible exception of yourself.In fact the aircraft comparisons drawn are not truly comparable if you exclude an arbitrary pricepoint.I've never observed Avsim staff operate in fear but I do not adhere to the premise that they are infallible.I stand by my earlier statements that Avsim Staff has at least the same responsibility toward devs as commercial devs have. Frankly Avsim staff is not intimidated by advertising dollars or the scope of certain devs standing so we can put that fantasy to bed.Your denial of the inference actually brings the shame full circle to yourself.:(

Ron-You are out of line here.I now have to make an observation as a long term mod here because these threads end up the same-over and over.I have never noticed a commercial user get upset when their product gets raves. I have noticed commercial developers get upset when critics are offered of their products and that is understanable. However this is a forum for discussions and fair discussions will allow all points of view as long as they are done without malice, politely, and without agenda. We had a well known developer a few years ago depart in a huff over a thread that contained some critics of his product which were politely expressed . When it was pointed out there was a similar thread two posts down that was 3 times as long with only positives and raves for his product that did not seem to impress him-he only saw the negative posts and of course wanted those removed, and left in a huff when we did not.Using this thread as example-I was one of the first posters in this thread that raved about this product. Where was the outrage at an avsim staff member stepping out of line by expressing an opinion there ? The fact is avsim staff have no financial motivation, are members of this forum who volunteer countless hours of time for free. There is no rule that they can not join the discussions and express opinions, and if there was there would probably be no one that would volunteer here to do this unbelievable nasty job of trying to balance things and keep everyone happy.I have an observation from moderating here for quite a while. Most threads self moderate E.g. if a product comes out and people are discussing it and one person comes in with an opinion that is off the charts either direction-other users usually step in to correct and rebalance the thread needing ultimately no moderation . I also have seen time and time again, that when a developer jumps in immediately at the first critic not giving the thread time to self moderate, the thread almost invariably and immediately goes downhill, ends up getting warnings from both side of the fence and becomes a mess. In my opinion when you guys jump in like this, you only do yourself's harm-and I don't like that because I am extremely supportive of developers.You know as a fact that if a post is out of line, malice, or full of agenda we will take care of it. In the case of some of your companies threads we have spent many hours hunting out imposters that have personal vendettas and don't belong on this forum. But much of the time we don't even get a chance to jump in, and by the time we do the thread is in such a mess that it has to be locked.I see nothing impolite or off the wall in Chock's post,and there are no violations of avsims rules.

Ron-You are out of line here.I now have to make an observation as a long term mod here because these threads end up the same-over and over.I have never noticed a commercial user get upset when their product gets raves. I have noticed commercial developers get upset when critics are offered of their products and that is understanable. However this is a forum for discussions and fair discussions will allow all points of view as long as they are done without malice, politely, and without agenda. We had a well known developer a few years ago depart in a huff over a thread that contained some critics of his product which were politely expressed . When it was pointed out there was a similar thread two posts down that was 3 times as long with only positives and raves for his product that did not seem to impress him-he only saw the negative posts and of course wanted those removed, and left in a huff when we did not.Using this thread as example-I was one of the first posters in this thread that raved about this product. Where was the outrage at an avsim staff member stepping out of line by expressing an opinion there ? The fact is avsim staff have no financial motivation, are members of this forum who volunteer countless hours of time for free. There is no rule that they can not join the discussions and express opinions, and if there was there would probably be no one that would volunteer here to do this unbelievable nasty job of trying to balance things and keep everyone happy. I have an observation from moderating here for quite a while. Most threads self moderate E.g. if a product comes out and people are discussing it and one person comes in with an opinion that is off the charts either direction-other users usually step in to correct and rebalance the thread. I also have seen time and time again, that when a developer jumps in immediately at the first critic not giving the thread time to self moderate, the thread almost invariably and immediately goes downhill. In my opinion when you guys jump in like this, you only do yourself's harm-and I don't like that because I am extremely supportive of developers.You know as a fact that if a post is out of line, malice, or full of agenda we will take care of it. But much of the time we don't even get a chance to jump in, and by the time we do the thread is in such a mess that it has to be locked.I see nothing impolite or off the wall in Chock's post,and there are no violations of avsims rules.

Geof, we're both old timers here and and nothing you nor I have posted is news to anyone who's been around more than a month.There are a couple of questions and an observation if permitted though.1a. You correctly state a double standard in that the rules applicable to the commercial tag folks do not apply to Avsim Staff.1b. Why then am I "out of line" in pointing out the fact that absent the "same rules" we all [commercial devs and Avsim Staff] at least have the "same responsibility" to each other?I've not stated that Chocks Post violated an "Avsim rule" I've stated that Avsim Staff has "responsibility" to all. From here that is an important distinction.We'll see if this stands.:(

Geof, we're both old timers here and and nothing you nor I have posted is news to anyone who's been around more than a month.There are a couple of questions and an observation if permitted though.1a. You correctly state a double standard in that the rules applicable to the commercial tag folks do not apply to Avsim Staff.1b. Why then am I "out of line" in pointing out the fact that absent the "same rules" we all [commercial devs and Avsim Staff] at least have the "same responsibility" to each other?I've not stated that Chocks Post violated an "Avsim rule" I've stated that Avsim Staff has "responsibility" to all. From here that is an important distinction.We'll see if this stands.:(

I'll answer both questions with one answer. For the same reason you are allowed to express your opinion on this matter in this thread. There is only a restriction of expressing opinion when financial interests are at stake. There is no double standard.

I'll answer both questions with one answer. For the same reason you are allowed to express your opinion on this matter in this thread.

Ok, so "I'm out of line" with an opinion while others are not for their opinion...:(

Ok, so "I'm out of line" with an opinion while others are not for their opinion...:(

The out of line was increasingly inflamatory postings. You are welcome to your opinion, as well as anyone on this board as long as it isn't a commercial developer commenting about another commercial developer.As you well know we have defended you many times when forum users complained that they thought you should not be posting an opinion here-not much different.

The out of line was increasingly inflamatory postings. You are welcome to your opinion, as well as anyone on this board as long as it isn't a commercial developer commenting about another commercial developer.As you well know we have defended you many times when forum users complained that they thought you should not be posting an opinion here-not much different.

Perhaps a reread is in order...Nowhere in this thread have I commited an increasingly inflamatory post regarding another dev.I'm aware of defenses and lumps taken in the past but this thread is current not past. One individual has been answered in the same manner as he posted.It appears that he can deal out negatives against me or a fellow dev but cannot take it when he receives the same.Oh well. Another day in FS Paradise.....:(

Perhaps a reread is in order...Nowhere in this thread have I commited an increasingly inflamatory post regarding another dev.I'm aware of defenses and lumps taken in the past but this thread is current not past. One individual has been answered in the same manner as he posted.It appears that he can deal out negatives against me or a fellow dev but cannot take it when he receives the same.Oh well. Another day in FS Paradise.....

I have already reread-several times. The Sherlock comment (and we know what goes before it) and circle of shame belong to you.

You can always re-download the aircraft package using the F1 wrapper 'key' you obtain after purchase. This is how updates are done via the F1 wrapper. If you go beyond a certain number of downloads for a particular product, you can reactivate your key quite easily on-line. It only take a couple of minutes.

Thanks to the 3 responders to this question, much appreciated.And Bert- thanks for reminding me about how Flight 1 works, I knew that but had spaced it when asking the question :)Bruce.

I have already reread-several times. The Sherlock comment (and we know what goes before it) and circle of shame belong to you.

Good to hear.That was in response to low blows delivered to a fellow dev designed to incite.There are no innocent parties here and I'm singled out? Ok, all yours boys.:(

Bottom line...the market will decide if this is a good price point or not.I was happy to pay. I'm sure there will be those that are not. :(

TA DA!Yup, whatever was up with me being able to buy it managed to unjam itself with no intervention from me, however, since that occurred at 7.35am this morning just before I was off to work to train a Photoshop course, I'll have to wait until this evening to actually try the thing out, but, looking forward to doing so. In the meantime I've left instructions with Badger, my co-pilot dog, that he is to preflight it thoroughly and fill the tanks ready for later today.Al

No diversion has been created by anyone with the possible exception of yourself.In fact the aircraft comparisons drawn are not truly comparable if you exclude an arbitrary pricepoint.I've never observed Avsim staff operate in fear but I do not adhere to the premise that they are infallible.I stand by my earlier statements that Avsim Staff has at least the same responsibility toward devs as commercial devs have. Frankly Avsim staff is not intimidated by advertising dollars or the scope of certain devs standing so we can put that fantasy to bed.Your denial of the inference actually brings the shame full circle to yourself.:(

No diversion? He got pretty agitated as soon as an avsim staff member started comparing "apples and oranges" like I did (and still do), please re-read post 34 on page 2. He even went on to say that Avsim staff should remain neutral and not state their opinions, which was the other thing I commented on, Avsim as an independant source of information. Then he managed to claim that it was aimed at two out of the hundreds of readers of this post he must have known were going to read it?At least a few people in this thread feel that comparisons like that are fair, including CoolP, Chock and I. I'm sure it looks different from a developer's point of view, but for me as an end-user I look for immersion first and foremost. I won't ask you what you meant about the "shame" bit, as that most certainly has nothing to do with the argument itself and is nothing but a primitive domination technique. I think that's one of the comments that made them say you were out of line, not you stating your views. They will have to moderate you more strictly than independant forumites though, even though you might not understand why that is the case.

An Avsim Staff reviewer is obviously allowed to express an opinion on the price point of an addon airplane. Not much point in being a reviewer if that were not the case.Thanks to Geofa for his moderation effort, in this thread and elsewhere. I think this little community owes a lot to yourself and the other mods for the sometimes difficult task of keeping everyone in line with Avsim's quite sensible posting rules.