Haven't seen you around for a while Dan, nice to see you still here :)

lol

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one.

There go 50M USD (taxpayers money) to rubble

Yikes is more like it........Typically a high performance jet when touching down for a landing, the speed is around 155..... Brake failure or engine failure,due to the fire seen at end of the video.

Yeah. That's what we mean by aerodynamic braking. Saves brakes.

Yes, I know what aerodynamic braking is, but that's a pretty long roll-out with nose up. Don't these things have reverse thrust?

Yes, I know what aerodynamic braking is, but that's a pretty long roll-out with nose up. Don't these things have reverse thrust?

Nope.

Here are some high quality, slow motion pictures taken from a better angle than the video. (plus you can actually see the crash, where as the video was out of focus during that time) These are taken from basically side-on. To me, it is interesting that the engine was still running, and so as the pictures progress, you can see more and more dirt shooting out from the jet. Also, I think in picture 7 you can actually see the pilot's head/helmet contact the glare shield. http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-643829

Here are some high quality, slow motion pictures taken from a better angle than the video. (plus you can actually see the crash, where as the video was out of focus during that time) These are taken from basically side-on. To me, it is interesting that the engine was still running, and so as the pictures progress, you can see more and more dirt shooting out from the jet. Also, I think in picture 7 you can actually see the pilot's head/helmet contact the glare shield. http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-643829

Thanks for the link! Photo #3 is now the background on my laptop

Of course elevator authority is shot at the lower speeds which would explain him trying to hold it off as long as possible.

????The nose can't be held up much below 100 kts which is why SOP is to land it before then. Quite what loss of elevator authority has to do with the pilot choosing to hold the nose off longer is non-sensical.

Then again as you say, it could mean he held the nose up too long

???????Best regards,Robin.

If anyone gets a video camera learn how to point it in the direction of what your trying to film!!!!It looks like brake failure and he's using aerodynamic braking.I couldn't tell if the speed brakes were out - they're on the same hydraulic system as the brakes.Best regards,Robin.

The nose can't be held up much below 100 kts which is why SOP is to land it before then. Quite what loss of elevator authority has to do with the pilot choosing to hold the nose off longer is non-sensical.

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Not quite sure you understand what I was trying to say, as that's not it. Language barrier?

alright, no comments then. please lock the topic! next! LOL

Haha, I meant no comment coming from me on this topic, as it was obviously some malfunction that I could not decipher and nobody got hurt. Sorry for the confusion...

If anyone gets a video camera learn how to point it in the direction of what your trying to film!!!! It looks like brake failure and he's using aerodynamic braking. I couldn't tell if the speed brakes were out - they're on the same hydraulic system as the brakes. Best regards,Robin.

I second the poor camera aiming. However, what the video does show (along with the high quality pictures out there) is that neither of the planes used their speedbrakes. This is where I have to correct your statement about the speedbrakes and wheel brakes being powered by the same hydraulic system. This is not true. On an F-16 the "A" system hydraulics control the Fuel Flow Proportioner, primary flight controls i.e. flaperons, stabilators, the rudder, and the leading edge flaps (on an F-16, LEFs are considered primary) and the secondary flight controls (speedbrakes), not the wheel brakes. The "B" system hydraulics also power the primary flight controls along with the nose wheel steering, landing gear, gun, IFR receptacle, JFS system, and the wheel brakes. This is straight from the General System Tech Order: 1.1.1.1 System A (2911). System A is designed to work ata pressure of 3100 (±50) psig to supply hydraulic power foroperation of the primary flight control surfaces and to thespeedbrakes and Fuel Flow Proportioner (FFP). During emergencypower operation, power is supplied to system A by theemergency hydraulic pump. All functions of system A areoperable under this condition but at a reduced performancelevel. 1.1.1.2 System B (2912). System B is designed to work ata pressure of 3100 (±50) psig to supply hydraulic power foroperation of the primary flight control surfaces and to thelanding gear, Nosewheel Steering (NWS, )wheel brakes, JetFuel Starter (JFS, )aerial refuel receptacle, and gun system. What is interesting to me is why neither aircrew used their speed brakes. I have worked on F-16s for the past 11 years and have always seen speedbrakes being used during landing. In fact, it's part of our Thruflight or Preflight inspections to look at the bottom of the speedbrakes to see if they scraped the runway during high angle of attack landings (I've seen that happen maybe 10 times). The fact that neither aircrew used them may just be attributed to the Alabama ANG operating procedures, I do not know, it just seemed weird to me. Also, just some G-whiz info about the speedbrakes since one person brought up the point that an F-16's speedbrakes would not be effective at slower speeds. Though they are small, they are pretty effective at slowing the aircraft, even during roll out. In the air, the speedbrakes can be opened to a max of 60°. From what I've been told by some of our aircrew, this is like having a wall mounted to the back of the plane (especially in flight). However, once the landing gear is lowered, the speedbrakes are automatically limited to 43°. They can be opened back to 60° by the aircrew, however, as soon as they let go of the switch, they move back to 43°. This limit is to reduced the amount of speedbrake - runway strikes that could occur at high angle of attack landings. Once the aircraft touches down, only the main landing gear weight on wheel switches are actuated, the speedbrakes stay at 43° because the aircraft is still at a high angle of attack. Only once the nose is lowered and the nose weight on wheel switch is actuated will the speedbrakes automatically open back to 60°, further increasing aerodynamic drag. Again, the Tech Data reference: 1.5.9 Speedbrake Subsystem Theory of Operation. Thespeedbrake subsystem provides aerodynamic drag for the aircraft(SD 27-61-_ _ and 27-62-_ _). The speedbrakes areopened, held in position, and closed by the three-position SPDBRK switch on the throttle grip. Speedbrake condition isreflected by the SPEED BRAKE position indicator. 1.5.9.1 Moving the SPD BRK switch aft applies 28 vdc toboth solenoids of the speedbrake control valve. This momentaryswitch position causes the speedbrakes to open.When either speedbrake opens more than 2 degrees, thespeedbrake close position switch removes 28 vdc from thesolenoid of the SPEED BRAKE indicator that displaysCLOSED and applies it to the solenoid that displays open(nine-dot array). The degree of speedbrake position is notprovided. System A hydraulic pressure powers both actuatorsthrough the three-position, four-way control valve. Two-wayrestrictors are located near the speedbrake retract fluid portsof the actuators so that symmetrical speedbrake operation ismaintained. The speedbrakes can be opened to a maximum of60 degrees for maximum aerodynamic drag effect. 1.5.9.2 When the SPD BRK switch is released, the switchreturns to the center position. This removes 28 vdc fromSolenoid (SOL) 2 (SD 27-61-_ _) in the speedbrake controlvalves. 28 vdc applied to the remaining solenoid SOL 1 holdsthe speedbrake in its present position. Moving the switchforward removes 28 vdc from both solenoids of the speedbrakevalve, allowing the speedbrake to close. Either pilotmay override the other pilot’s "speedbrake close" command byholding their SPD BRK switch in the fully aft "speedbrakeopen" position. If such override is accomplished, releasing theSPD BRK switch to allow return to the center position resultsin speedbrakes becoming fully closed in response to the otherSPD BRK switch being at the forward position. 1.5.9.3 When the landing gear is lowered in flight, as indicatedby the right main landing gear downlock relay B, thespeedbrakes are automatically limited to 43 degrees maximumopen position in hold mode. When the right main landing geardownlock relayn B becomes energized to indicate the gear islowered, 28 vdc is routed through the 43 degree positionswitches to speed brake control valve SOL 1. Maintaining thespeedbrakes at 43 degrees or less allows the 28 vdc to remainon SOL 1 to hold the speedbrakes at their present position. Ifthe speedbrakes are open greater than 43 degrees when thelanding gear is lowered, the 28 vdc is removed from SOL 1and the speedbrakes close until they are at the 43 degreeposition. In this case, the 43 degree position switches closeand apply voltage to SOL 1 to maintain that position. 1.5.9.4 Positioning the SPD BRK switch aft will apply 28vdc to SOL 2 and override the 43 degree limitation. Thespeedbrakes will open up to their maximum of 60 degrees aslong as the switch is held in aft. Once the switch is released,the speedbrakes will close until they are once again at the 43degree position. After aircraft weight is on the nose landinggear during landing, 28 vdc is applied to SOL 1 and willallow the speedbrakes to open to the fully open position andremain there even after the switch is released. As for the notion that the aircrew are pulling long "Wheelies" to show off to the crowd is just wrong. Again, I've seen quite a few F-16s land in my career and they have all done the same, long aerodynamic brake manuever that you see in the video (You Tube it, I'm sure you'll find more examples). However, I don't blame you for coming to that conclusion because I felt the same way the first time I watched one land. I know this post was long and kind've drab, and if that bothers anyone, I'm sorry. However, I have been living, eating, and bleeding F-16s for the better part of my adult life. When a topic comes up about the aircraft I jump at the oportunity to give whatever knowledge I do have about the plane to anyone who's interested. As for my opinion on what happened at Wittman Regional, I'm not going to give one; it would only be speculation and that is not fair to the aircrew. Really, only the NTSB and an Accident Investigation Board can be the authority to let us know what happened. One this I can say about almost any aircraft incident: it is rarely the failure of only one system. For instance, if the "B" system hydrualics did fail, there is enough pressure stored in the JFS/Brake accumulator to allow for three or four applications of the wheel brakes (the aircrew would also be alerted of such a failure). If there was a broken wire, there are two channels that opperate wheel brake actuation. The point is, in aviation, there's always a backup. Anyway, I'm done now. I think it is important to note that all the Tech Data references that I gave in this post are unclassified. I love to talk about the plane, but I'm not stupid. OK, I'm off to wait as patiently as possible for the 737NGX release. Brian HibbertF-16 Crew ChiefA&P Mechanic

Brian HibbertF-16 Crew ChiefA&P Mechanic

Interesting. Nice to have you here! Any speculation you care to share? Join in on the BSing?