Lack of vatsim controllers

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

I can't stand when people come to me and say things are too hard on the controller side. To control requires effort. It's not something you can just do. There's no automation that will do anything for you as a controller, unlike the pilot side. To me, those who show up saying it's too hard simply can't bother to do any work to learn how to properly control. It's not incredibly hard, though certain people will be better at it than others. I'm perfectly fine with the amount of controllers that are out there right now. To be honest, keeping the controllers who don't want to put in the effort out helps to keep the good controllers around. To take that further, cutting the number of bad pilots (and by 'bad', I mean those who refuse to learn, or make an effort to fly properly) would likely increase the number of controllers who control more often (I will log off earlier than planned if I've been taxed with terrible pilots all night), and pilots who will fly more often. Anyone see parallels to the airlines here? Was that too far?

Not at all too far. I have never once been frustrated by a new pilot or someone who logged on before knowing what they were in for, and I appreciate that controller will help them (and point them to the VATSIM Pilot Resources), even when they suggest the new pilot log off, study a little and then come back. As I said before, I honestly respect pilots who don't care for or want a realistic environment. I just believe that given the stated purpose and rules for VATSIM, they are just on the wrong venue and should find a network (GameSpy, FSHost) where they can enjoy the type of environment they're looking for. On the other side of that coin, it's wrong of them to try to use VATSIM as a non-structured environment. What I find frustrating are the pilots who do what they want when they want, the ones who know what to do and just blow it off and intentionally interfere with other traffic in uncontrolled (sometimes controlled) areas. This is something we can make better if we work as a group.

[Sekstifire 10]

I can't stand when people come to me and say things are too hard on the controller side. To control requires effort. It's not something you can just do. There's no automation that will do anything for you as a controller, unlike the pilot side. To me, those who show up saying it's too hard simply can't bother to do any work to learn how to properly control. It's not incredibly hard, though certain people will be better at it than others. ..

It IS too hard to become a controller, but not the technical aspects. Those are straight forward to learn, however its next to impossible to get a mentor for the training. I have been waiting 10 months now. Its really, really hard, at least for certain ARTCCs. Perhaps the queues are shorter over at zdc

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

I don't know about the problems with other VATSIM contoller areas, but I can tell you that there would probably be a great deal more controllers in the Denver airspace if we had a different Air Traffic Manager. This hobby doesn't need an egotistical and biased against women individual in that position or any other position of authority. Just my opinion.

Yeah, some changes were needed in Denver, and it does seem as if there have been some improvements. By the way, we've also take the time to praise controllers, managers and event staff. To be honest, we experience and send a lot more positive events than we do negative. The change in VATSIM that we've seen is just an increase in the number of things that go wrong. But this doesn't mean that most of our experience isn't highly positive, because it is. One thing I'm overwhelmingly impressed by is what it took to write the server and client software for VATSIM, both for pilots and controllers. That just amazes me, and even more so because it's all FREE. Plus, everyone is a volunteer! Given those circumstances, I feel blessed to have devoted guys create this type of environment for me to fly and meet others who share the same love of the hobby, and then be able to share the environment. Seriously, we are TRULY BLESSED. Be well.

[MarkW 1,490]

I can't stand when people come to me and say things are too hard on the controller side. To control requires effort. It's not something you can just do. There's no automation that will do anything for you as a controller, unlike the pilot side. To me, those who show up saying it's too hard simply can't bother to do any work to learn how to properly control. It's not incredibly hard, though certain people will be better at it than others.

Its also hard to properly fly a complex aircraft addon but just because its a challenge does not mean that we need Vatsim managers that make the process painful with students feeling like they are being put down trying to learn a volunteer position for fun !!! Mark.

[mbucholski 9]

I would bet that most very experienced virtual pilots, real student pilots, and people with real world time could be controllers.

Controlling and flying are different topics. In some areas the knowledge from the "pilot side" is helpful, but in most it isn't (take a look at ICAO Doc 4444 or FAA Order JO 7110.65T).

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

Its also hard to properly fly a complex aircraft addon but just because its a challenge does not mean that we need Vatsim managers that make the process painful with students feeling like they are being put down trying to learn a volunteer position for fun !!! Mark.

Mark, I appreciate and respect your feelings here, and I understand that I don't have all the information about the incident or incidents you experienced. By the way, I'm not a controller on VATSIM, just a pilot. Also, I am not part of any VATSIM management. I do not condone anyone making someone feel bad, no matter what the reason or venue. I also realize that sometimes there really aren't two sides to a story, that someone was made to feel bad and it was wrong for that to happen, plain and simple. I am also very sorry to hear that you were made to feel as you do. With all that in mind, I do wish to say that sometimes people log into VATSIM without really understanding what the VATSIM network is for. I'M NOT IMPLYING this was the situation in your case, I have no idea what what happened, what your expectations are/were or how experienced you may were/are in an ATC environment, so please understand my limitations with this. You may already know what I'm about to write, if so, then please forgive me. VATSIM is a private network that allows public access. It's purpose is to provide a highly structured and realistic ATC environment for simulator pilots to fly and controllers to control aircraft as realistically as possible. We all have our own ideas of what fun is, and if flying in that type of highly structured environment is one's idea of fun (it is for me and those I fly with), then it's a match! To prevent disruption to other pilots, group and VATSIM events, it's necesary for each pilot to be knowledgable in the various stages of flight under ATC control and how to interact with ATC and other other aircraft. I've seen occaisons where someone new to VATSIM has (unknowingly) jumped feet first into an area with a lot of traffic, where the controllers are either very busy or overwhelmed, and they don't have the time to handle, help or work with a new pilot during those times. In fact, the VATSIM rules actually state that pilots should not fly on the network at all until they are familiar with the proper procedures. That said, I don't know of a single controller who will not help a new pilot, barring in mind that they can't help set up software or teach them while they're controlling other aircraft. Flying of VATSIM can be a terrific experience, especially for those new to the environment. The concerns and complaints that are posted here are mostly from guys who have been on the network for a while and noticed a change. But I'll tell you that there is nothing like flying in an event or busy area on VATSIM, if you're into realism. IT's as close to real world commercial aviation as I'll ever get to. If flying in a highly structured ATC environment is your thing, and if you'd like a little help with learning about flying on VATSIM, consider one of these option. I can promise you that I've found it to be a terrific experience. 1. VATCAN, who has a free pilot and controller training program. http://www.vatcan.org/2. VATSIM Pilot Resources3. Join a Virtual Airline, many have terrific training programs and mentors that will help you get going.4. Find an online pilot group . I sincerely hope I've been of help. Again, forgive me if you already knew the above information.

[FSMP 95]

With Vatsim, if you pick the right time of Day, and the right Time, and the right Area, and the right Center, you can get a reasonably good "Vatsim Experience". If you accept it for what its is, then its OK. After all, the price is right. Most of the real world controller I know, who have looked into Vatsim, were put off by the idea of being "Trained" by non-real world controllers, who wanted Controllers to operate under some fictitious Vatsim Rules, that are a corrupted version of the real world procedures, despite there being no technical reason why Vatsim could not use real world procedures correctly.It was "The Vatsim way" or "No way".Some rose through the ranks by answering tests in the way they knew were incorrect, but were the answers that Vatsim wanted, but then finally gave up, after sitting at airports for hours with no traffic. If there is a popular Vatsim EVENT going on, then the traffic picks up, but otherwise, there is seldom the density of traffic that approaches real world. Vatsim Pet Peeves: (1) Vatsim Pilots that, despite NOT being requested to, insist on reporting to the approach controller, who is watching them on radar, that they are "FULLY established on the Localizer". (2) Controllers who request Pilots report when "FULLY ESTABLISHED on the Localizer", and get them into that phrasiology habit. Never figured out what FAA Phrasiology "FULLY ESTASBLISHED" is !!

[MarkW 1,490]

DAVECT2003 - I have had no issues, my comment was just reflecting back what I am hearing from other controllers and other ARTCC/FIR's and is generally seen as an issue on Vatsim. Mark.

[Houghton11 12]

I personally don't like the idea of controllers on the network who are not trained properly on the RW procedures....as a pilot do you really want that? Not to say it should be so hard that nobody can pass, I mean lets get real we don't have traffic that gets anywhere even close to the slowest times in real world.

It's simple though. The training just isn't flexible enough to allow progression for those who would like to do it over a year or something. I can't dedicate a weekly couple hours at London = No mentor really wants to train over a long time = stuck at S1....and then I have to throw all the real life tips and tricks out of the window apparently because some 14 year old S3 is giving me s*** over comms...sigh.... and when I say tips and tricks I mean proper stuff of course (No...it's not descend and maintain...just maintain for f sakes) If there was somebody who was willing to train on a Saturday afternoon then i'd be different...but not many people want to spend their Saturday afternoons in front of computers. But we don't need individuals to control exclusively on VATSIM. An S1 or S3 could easily learn how to work a correct flight-service position. Give weather, active runway, "clear" approaches (I guess you could pretend there's a centre online if there wasn't)..etc. During busy days the FSS could be providing coverage for centre in airports that are not controlled any ways (an aircraft hasn't been "cleared to land" in Dryden in decades...that's Souix Radio's job and only for advisory)...which is realistic...that's how it is. The S1 or S3 get's valuable experience working under a centre controller (if online), learns the phraseology and procedures just by watching most of the time, and the pilot gets to talk to someone throughout his/her whole journey. But this will all get knocked down because to some the idea of a "junior controller" talking to a whole region makes them freak. I understand those who say "well I put the time in why can't you" but the facts are there. It's just not sustainable. Just having someone to talk to is what most pilots are looking for. Sure some will think FSS=some sort of control but they'll learn. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't understand what's wrong with a learning pilot or a learning controller. Sure, he/she may be a bit out of their element some times but that's what it is all about. This fixture on having someone supremely qualified as if real-lives were on the line is what drives me mad.

[Britfrog 37]

HELPING NEW VATSIM PILOTSLet's face it, a lot of guys avoid VATSIM because they're (understandably) a bit overwhelmed and intimidated by it all, and not everyone can read, understand and apply something as different as realistic flight routes, ATC communications, traffic patterns, and aircraft procedures. To do it all at once, well that's just overwhelming for someone who's never stepped into a real cockpit. Add to that a new pilot feeling embarrassed for not knowing what they're doing, and it can all seem a bit unfriendly on top of being intimidating. Of course most VATSIM controllers understand this, and if the new pilot starts out in an area that it's busy then most controllers will take the time to help them. But there is another way. Our group has worked with quite a few pilots new to VATSIM, and we've found that new pilots become comfortable enough on the network after just a few flights. It really helps to have other guys you "know" to help you install, setup, and learn the FSINN software (we do this in about 15 minutes so the new pilot doesn't have any frustrating issues), and then help them to learn how to get or develop a flightplan and understand the various stages of flight under ATC control. I don't want to mislead you, we help new VATSIM pilots understand these things, but we also point them to the written material. It's just that we've found that explaining things to them (we use Desktop Presentation Software) first helps them to better understand the written material. They continue to learn as they make more flights with the group, and before you know it they're helping someone else. We've found those who are mentored stick around because a whole new world is opened up to them. Add multi-crew (shared cockpit) on VATSIM, and it can be an immersive and incredible experience. While we always like to have more ATC coverage, we don't sweat it as we realize the controllers are volunteers and have real jobs, and we fly between airports that are manned up and take advantage of VATSIM and virtual airline events. VATSPY helps us to locate the areas where there are controllers and events, as well as the event listings themselves. ONLINE PILOTS UNION?Not another Virtual Airline, but rather a sincere and well meaning group of online pilots dedicated to helping our networks be the most realistic as they can be. Maybe that type of group could help turn VATSIM around, maybe even bring about a merger with VATSIM, IVAO, and West Coast ATC. I do know that dividing the online community further isn't good for anyone, and I can't image ever flying offline again, not ever. 1. Positively promote online flying (VATSIM/IVAO).2. Mentor new pilots, but have them read a few pages about flying on the network and talking with ATC.3. Have them listen to a flight with active controllers at least once. We pipe through the ATC from out flights to a separate Team Speak room.4. Provide group based constructive feedback to airport managers and VATSIM Board of Governors. After we establish ourselves as sincere, it could help. We're already doing this as a group, but a much larger group would be VERY helpful. By the way, our group insists on a certain level of realism, as this is a Hobby and Simulator to us. We have several active and retired commercial pilots in the group and quite a number of private pilots, and the help they provide to us is terrific. Doesn't mean we don't have fun, and the chatter on our TeamSpeak3 server during flights (never when there is hopping ATC communications) varies from funny, to serious, to technical help. All in all, it's a lot of fun, but at heart we're all serious sim-heads. DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONSI've run an online flight based group for over 5 years, so I know and respect that different people want different things out of a flight simulator experience. Some want to fly online with a group simply to be part of something or have someone else to talk to, but they don't care about realism. They show up on VATSIM and IVAO because there are other people there. I understand and respect that, I honestly do. Our group mixes that with a desire to achieve the most realistic experience possible, both in the cockpit and on the network. I'm not suggesting that everyone should want or like what we do, but VATSIM and IVAO both clearly state that the networks are realism based. There are plenty of other online areas for guys who want to fly with someone else but leave the realism and seriousness out of it. Keep in mind that VATSIM and IVAO are private networks that allow the public in, not the other way around. If someone isn't interested in seriousness and realism, then that's respectable, it's just that VATSIM/IVAO isn't the right venue for what they're looking for. I say this because I know and respect that some don't care about realism, think of this as purely a game rather than a simulator. The GAMSPY network isn't my thing, because it lacks the seriousness and realism that I'm after. But both the public and private areas can provide someone with a less serious place to fly with other people. There are also several FSHost servers up (Google is your friend here). Foregive me, that's a long winded two cents. It's just a subject I'm sensitive to, and want to help make things better. Anyway, just a few ideas. Be well. Dave

I can only say how I find things, i am a real world pilot, i have joined vatsim twice now and never managed to have a flight at all. the setting up is not easy especially when you have some dork who treats you like you just crawled out from under a stone, and you cant get their software to work properly.what we need is an understanding helping hand to guide the new pilots not a holier than thou attitude , surely most of us have webcams wouldnt it be easy with the use of webcams to help setup the connections?What we seem to have forgotten is this is simulated flying not the real thing so leave the ego's at the door.

[ryanbatc 12,773]

Subscription based?! it will have to be very very good indeed.

If you're alright with a small geographical area - it is. You can beta test (aka fly for free) right now, just go to the site:http://pilotedge.net/page/home PE isn't a competitor for vatsim - the target audience is really towards real world pilots (or students) and what I would call hardcore flight simmers OR both! I'll give you my insight. I've flown on the network about 25 times since the FSX client was released. (XP, FS9 clients also available). What draws me the most is quality ATC. I'm a real world controller and pilot so having quality controllers is more important than a huge coverage area. I also tend to fly GA, but lately have been flying the NGX on short "BBJ-style" routes. The coverage area for the remainder of the beta is Socal (southern cali tracon), but the production model will have both norcal and socal areas. The neat part about PE is the frequencies. You don't get a list in your pilot client like vatsim/iavo but you simply pull up the charts and look at the real world frequencies. You'll talk to a human everytime, no matter what freq it is. They've also modeleld reception range based on altitude or obstructions. For instance in some parts of CA you can't call the center until airborne due to mountains in the area. But they've also modeled RCAG's and RCO's so normally you'd be able to get an IFR flight plan from the ground. Drones. They essentially add atmosphere to the whole thing. They are NORDO hehe so you can't really interact with them at an uncontrolled field but they'll still fly around, military and civilian alike. The controllers will issue traffic advisories as you fly near them just like real life. Setup is simple, just download SB4 like you would for vatsim or ivao and make a few slight modifications and you're set. If you want to practice pattern work, there's always a controller on during the beta times (6-9pm PDT). If you want to fly a TEC route, you'll use real world frequencies. If you want to fly a longer route, same. If you want to practice instrument approaches, super. I've done all those and it works out very well. I highly recommend PE, try it now while in beta.

I can only say how I find things, i am a real world pilot, i have joined vatsim twice now and never managed to have a flight at all. the setting up is not easy especially when you have some dork who treats you like you just crawled out from under a stone, and you cant get their software to work properly.what we need is an understanding helping hand to guide the new pilots not a holier than thou attitude , surely most of us have webcams wouldnt it be easy with the use of webcams to help setup the connections?What we seem to have forgotten is this is simulated flying not the real thing so leave the ego's at the door.

I'd love to help another RWer out... PM me.

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

With Vatsim, if you pick the right time of Day, and the right Time, and the right Area, and the right Center, you can get a reasonably good "Vatsim Experience". If you accept it for what its is, then its OK. After all, the price is right. Most of the real world controller I know, who have looked into Vatsim, were put off by the idea of being "Trained" by non-real world controllers, who wanted Controllers to operate under some fictitious Vatsim Rules, that are a corrupted version of the real world procedures, despite there being no technical reason why Vatsim could not use real world procedures correctly.It was "The Vatsim way" or "No way".Some rose through the ranks by answering tests in the way they knew were incorrect, but were the answers that Vatsim wanted, but then finally gave up, after sitting at airports for hours with no traffic. If there is a popular Vatsim EVENT going on, then the traffic picks up, but otherwise, there is seldom the density of traffic that approaches real world. Vatsim Pet Peeves: (1) Vatsim Pilots that, despite NOT being requested to, insist on reporting to the approach controller, who is watching them on radar, that they are "FULLY established on the Localizer". (2) Controllers who request Pilots report when "FULLY ESTABLISHED on the Localizer", and get them into that phrasiology habit. Never figured out what FAA Phrasiology "FULLY ESTASBLISHED" is !!

I've never heard any of the controllers asking if someone was "Fully Established", but I don't doubt that it happened either! LOL! I've got to run to work, but will PM you this evening. I'm sure what I'll send you will help. Take care.

[Wynthorpe 51]

If you're alright with a small geographical area - it is. You can beta test (aka fly for free) right now, just go to the site:http://pilotedge.net/page/home PE isn't a competitor for vatsim - the target audience is really towards real world pilots (or students) and what I would call hardcore flight simmers OR both! I'll give you my insight. I've flown on the network about 25 times since the FSX client was released. (XP, FS9 clients also available). What draws me the most is quality ATC. I'm a real world controller and pilot so having quality controllers is more important than a huge coverage area. I also tend to fly GA, but lately have been flying the NGX on short "BBJ-style" routes. The coverage area for the remainder of the beta is Socal (southern cali tracon), but the production model will have both norcal and socal areas. The neat part about PE is the frequencies. You don't get a list in your pilot client like vatsim/iavo but you simply pull up the charts and look at the real world frequencies. You'll talk to a human everytime, no matter what freq it is. They've also modeleld reception range based on altitude or obstructions. For instance in some parts of CA you can't call the center until airborne due to mountains in the area. But they've also modeled RCAG's and RCO's so normally you'd be able to get an IFR flight plan from the ground. Drones. They essentially add atmosphere to the whole thing. They are NORDO hehe so you can't really interact with them at an uncontrolled field but they'll still fly around, military and civilian alike. The controllers will issue traffic advisories as you fly near them just like real life. Setup is simple, just download SB4 like you would for vatsim or ivao and make a few slight modifications and you're set. If you want to practice pattern work, there's always a controller on during the beta times (6-9pm PDT). If you want to fly a TEC route, you'll use real world frequencies. If you want to fly a longer route, same. If you want to practice instrument approaches, super. I've done all those and it works out very well. I highly recommend PE, try it now while in beta. I'd love to help another RWer out... PM me.

That sounds very interesting indeed, i would love to try it out but being in the UK it will be very early in the morning indeed, so i probably wont get to try it.

[FSP532 1]

To make a long story short, and to give my experience only: I left IVAO because of poor ATC'ing and super-ego controllers. Worst online experience ever! Then I met VATSIM and their fabulous controllers. I was a complete noob and it took me a year until I learned my way up and reached the Ground certification, passing exams, training on sweatbox, etc etc etc you name it. I'm on my way to Tower certification, and they Yes, it was/is hard. Is it rewarding? For me, it's amazing, and I know I will NEVER-EVER returning to ivao. Long live VATSIM! :D

[ryanbatc 12,773]

That sounds very interesting indeed, i would love to try it out but being in the UK it will be very early in the morning indeed, so i probably wont get to try it.

Yeah that would post a bit of a problem huh? Hope you're an early riser!