X-plane 10 demo is out...

[alainneedle1 97]

Alain my old friend, what are you ranting and raging about? So does this mean you love FSX, or Flight, or Prepar3D or XP10 or what? Not disagreeing with you, I might, but I can't, because I don't know what to disagree about? Good to see you active in these here parts.Kind regards,

Hey! Stephen, I'm not ranting and raging, I guess I'm getting tired of the "My father is stronger than yours" type of debate....I guess I need to trick the wife with a good reason into the bedroom....I'll be back more relaxed, give me a couple of hours....

[Gate99 246]

Ben,Yesterday, a couple of XP diehards had exactly the same behaviour as yours right now except that they were bashing FSX and its users. The thread was closed and a guy was banned.Want to see the same thing happen here ?

Yes, actually I would like to see this thread closed and the OP warned. This thread should never have been started here. This is (suppose to be) the MS Flight Forum. There is a perfectly good X Plane forum to discuss X Plane.

[alainneedle1 97]

Yes, actually I would like to see this thread closed and the OP warned. This thread should never have been started here. This is (suppose to be) the MS Flight Forum. There is a perfectly good X Plane forum to discuss X Plane.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee seriously? Just because I wanted to share some good news with my friends simmers....well, so be it.

[dtrjones 356]

Yes, actually I would like to see this thread closed and the OP warned. This thread should never have been started here. This is (suppose to be) the MS Flight Forum. There is a perfectly good X Plane forum to discuss X Plane.

Mark I thought the X-Plane post was very relevent to Flight Simmers and if you're on *ANY* of the AVSIM forums then I'm guessing you have an interest in simming, some people have made this post out to be way bigger that it is, a simple line to inform users a competing product has a demo, it's nothing more or nothing less than that.You've turn this into a personal attack which is the BEST way of alerting a moderator to YOUR presence, not of the OP. So good luck with that.Cheers,Dave.

[JSkorna 137]

I want to know then where is the tea forum?Or should all the posters in the PMDG Forum be banned who post non-PMDG topics there?

[speedbird2001 0]

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee seriously?

I take it you are quoting your wife, when you were able to ''trick her with a good reason into the bedroom....'' !!!!!

[alainneedle1 97]

I take it you are quoting your wife, when you were able to ''trick her with a good reason into the bedroom....'' !!!!!

that was her reaction the first time she had to use the joy stick...that was not easy for her at first but she's flying high now....

[Gate99 246]

Mark I thought the X-Plane post was very relevent to Flight Simmers and if you're on *ANY* of the AVSIM forums then I'm guessing you have an interest in simming, some people have made this post out to be way bigger that it is, a simple line to inform users a competing product has a demo, it's nothing more or nothing less than that.You've turn this into a personal attack which is the BEST way of alerting a moderator to YOUR presence, not of the OP. So good luck with that.Cheers,Dave.

Dave, "a simple line to inform users a competing product " has turned into 4+ pages. I have no problem with simple one line posts. But because it was posted in the wrong forum (here) all of the off topic posts also end up here, needlessly cluttering the forum. What's so wrong in simply asking users to post in the appropriate forums. Is it really that much to ask? If I was to try and inquire about CPU performance specs here my post would be rightfully locked or moved. Other off topic posts -which already have a dedicated forum here, are mysteriously overlooked.

I want to know then where is the tea forum?

You can start here:www.teachat.com

[alainneedle1 97]

Dave, "a simple line to inform users a competing product " has turned into 4+ pages. I have no problem with simple one line posts. But because it was posted in the wrong forum (here) all of the off topic posts also end up here, needlessly cluttering the forum. What's so wrong in simply asking users to post in the appropriate forums. Is it really that much to ask? If I was to try and inquire about CPU performance specs here my post would be rightfully locked or moved. Other off topic posts -which already have a dedicated forum here, are mysteriously overlooked.You can start here:www.teachat.com

Gate99, chill out a little, if MS were giving us info on Flight like the guys at XP-10 are doing I'm sure we would not talk about XP-10 here, nobody's is getting hurt, it's all done in good fun....going back to my wife now....

[Tierborn 191]

That, as a professional software developer, is what I call flawed product. Doesn't matter what the product is... seriously. If the user interface is so convoluted as to be anything but intuitive... then the product is flawed.For all software the #1 test of saleability is a term called "ease of use". If it's very complex and difficult to grasp because it does not 'intuitively' guide the user towards the task/features they seek... then it's a failure. This applies to all software. It's not about 'X-Plane'... as in I'm not trying to 'bash' 'X-Plane'. I'm just telling you that the UI is the single most important part of any sofware package. Always has been, always will be.Dismissing user's complaints regarding a UI is "development suicide".

All software .. wrong! Many CAD and modeling applications are difficult to use. I whole ton of enterprise software is very difficult to use.... the list goes on!

[Ben Cap 89]

Ben,Yesterday, a couple of XP diehards had exactly the same behaviour as yours right now except that they were bashing FSX and its users. The thread was closed and a guy was banned.Want to see the same thing happen here ?

Well,1. I was not using ANY derogatory language or expressions.2. I was SIMPLY expressing my opinion about my feelings toward XP series.3. Getting banned for the above is ridiculous because these forums are for discussions and opinions.

[JSkorna 137]

[Gibbage 199]

For the people who are saying XP's UI is just different and not hard, your only fooling yourself. As someone who has works in some of the most complex UI's out there (3DS Max, Maya, Zbrush) I could tell right off the bat that XP's UI was way too complex.Here is my demo experience.Start the game, and your dropped into a 747 on KSEA. I try the hat on my stick, and nothing. I tried advancing my throttle, nothing. Now im randomly hitting keys to bring up a menu system.At this point, im already disenchanted with the experience. I have never once seen a flight sim that didn’t have some sort of joystick pre-configured!So, now im trying to find the UI by randomly hitting keys. First, FSX gives you a menu to start off with, and in game, you still have the menu bar above. There is nothing in XP10. I hit esc, alt, ctrl, tab, page up, page down, nothing. Im moving my mouse around the screen and to the top and bam, menu bar! Would of been nice to have some sort of pop-up telling you "To access the menu, move your mouse to the top of the screen" so new users are flailing for the VERY LIMITED time they have. So I find the menu, and click on joystick config, and im just staggered SPEECHLESS. The first tab is rather self-explanatory. You have your axis, and you assign each axis to its function. For some reason, this wasent done for my stick by default? I set my axis, and calibrate my stick by rotating it around all the axis. Then I jump to the tab of "buttons: basic". I don’t know about you, but my definition of "basic" must be different then XP's definition of the word. Your assaulted with a shier wall of commands. 5 rows of about 32 commands in each row, for around 160 commands. HOW IS THIS BASIC?So im trying to set up my HAT so I can pan around the cockpit in the "BASIC" window, and there is a view section. There is things like "glance left" and "backwards" but no "basic" was of saying "I want to use the hat to look around". Basically I need to set every direction to a view? I try a few, and it instantly snaps to that view, not panning. I see "3-D cockpit cmnmd-look" listed. #####? what is cmnmd-look?So I give up in "basic" and go into "advanced" screen. I nearly fainted! On the left is a grid of "joystick buttons". This grid is devided into I would estimate over 300 button's. 300!!!!!! My joystick only seems to use the first 20 or so. You click something on your stick, one of the boxes in the grid lights up for god knows why. A 2nd row brakes the commands down into category’s. Thats helpful. The 3rd row is the commands in the category. I still cant find out how to set my had!!!!!So I give up on the hat, and try to fly. I hop into the Cessna 172, and advance my throttle forward. The 172 starts down the runway, in reverse...... Hu? Must have the axis wrong. I reverse the throttle, and it goes forward. OK. So once it gets a little bit of speed, it starts veering left. A little right rudder corrects it. Im thinking "must be torque" and take off. The moment my wheels leave the runway, my aircraft starts banking left! No amount of right aileron or rudder can correct this, and my Cessna 172 finds its way into the lobby of KSEA. Start over.So I find the external view, and at rest, my control surfaces are all messed up. Thats my problem! So I go back into Joystick config, and calibrate the stick. Everything in the joystick menu looks fine, so I exit and my control surfaces are still messed up.At this point im complaining about the UI to a friend who is a big fan of XP and he hops into Skype with me to try and help. It took him well over 20 minutes, but we found out the problem with this button on the axis config that says something like "use this for center". Basically that tells XP that the current position of the stick is the center. That fixed me and I was able to fly.OK. First, again, never had a flight sim not be able to use a simple joystick by default. I can understand a complex HOTAS needing setup, but a basic stick? Also, this XP vet wasn’t even able to figure out A: How to use hat for panning and B: what the axis problem was, yet in the same breath he's telling me how simple and easy the UI really is "once you get to know it".At that point, I have been using XP10 for almost an hour, and only have experienced about 10 minutes of flight. 1 hour for 10 mins of VERY BASIC flight? And I still cant use my hat to pan the camera around! It would take me DAYS to config a full HOTAS system!This UI is horrible, and punishes new users to such an extend im really surprised XP picks up any new users at all! Here is how I see it. My FSX looks just as good, if not better. I love the FM on XP10, but im not going to spend 80$ and suffer though that UI for just a nice FM. What gets me are all the XP fans that ignore the MANY MANY MANY complaints about the UI and just say "well I guess its just different, because its easy for me!". I could understand ignoring 1 or 2 complaints, but so many? Its the #1 complaint in all the forums, yet its ignored.Right now, XP 10 is in a great position to gain a lot of new fans, but the UI will drive a great portion of those possible new fans away. The moment XP makes its UI more intuitive, it will no longer play 2^nd fiddle too FSX. The problem with that is FSX is almost 6 years old, and Flight is (hopefully) just around the corner!Thats not even mentioning the massive amount of graphical glitches I found that are just too numerious to even count. XP fans say the bugs are because its in beta, but later they proudly proclaim that "XP is always in beta" as if its a good thing. So basically they are saying "it will never be fixed"?

[woweezowee 10]

No, it's not "always in beta". nobody ever said that. vesion 9 went final after quite a lot of betas, but today it is version 9.7 - very stable. With new features coming nearly every update since 9.2.Just don't freak out. There is a manual. Why does everybody assume it's easy to jump in the sim, push randomly some buttons (in the hope it would work like another piece of software), and off you go?Why don't you start by reading the manual, for example. Might save some frustration. Also, why try more than an hour when asking the community the question maybe would have give the answer within 5 minutes?Stick with what you have, if it's that bad for you. Nobody is forcing anyone to invest his precious time. That's completely understood. But if you try, give the sim and the supporters that are willing to help a fair chance.

[Gate99 246]

Gate99, chill out a little, if MS were giving us info on Flight like the guys at XP-10 are doing I'm sure we would not talk about XP-10 here, nobody's is getting hurt, it's all done in good fun....going back to my wife now....

So the only time this is MS Flight forum is when MS has something to say about it? Nonsense. Again I ask, is it too much to ask users to post relevant info. into an already existing and appropriate forum?Mark