A Minority Report

[pilota 0]

Of course everything is speculation based upon what we have in front of us, but there is reason to believe that FLIGHT is already superior to FSX in some important aspects like flight dynamics, weather and rendering. Those are excellent grounds to build on from there. None of us know from MS about an SDK being made available after release, only that a very early pre-release SDK was not made available at that time to certain developers after negotiations, or talks, or whatever you want to call it, broke down.Those that don't believe in something will fall for anything. There is a lot of nonsense being sold as popular wisdom.For certain, there will be a whole lot more further developed product than there is now.That is the truth! Once you get by the simplistic beginning there is a lot to really like about FLIGHT.Kind regards,

By your posts I see you are a Happy Gamer...Good for you, enjoy Flight....but trying to convince The Sim hobby community to fly in order to get coins and fly through hoops is fooling yourself. Games like Fuel, Dirt, Dirt II have great graphics, beautiful skies, fiction weather and a fantastic dynamic engine so why would Flight the game not have them too. You´ll notice that these games all are restricted to a fairly small location of geography to obtain many of the features. My grandson loves them, he is six and quite a hot shot driver....as you have noticed (?) most Simers are guys who love aviation one way or another and treat their Game-Sim as a hobby for thanks to great addons the sensation of flying is the best around the PC world. Real weather engines have evolved to the point that very good simulation is available. Fantastic airports from all over the world have been created and Mesh has made available great scenery of the Alps and other mountain ranges. Those special places, unique to some, are available by the thousands by developers that do it for love and fun placing them as freeware for all to enjoy if they so desire. Payware has given the Simer great AI aircraft and you will find airports with the traffic the real ones have. If you like naval aviation there are many freeware and Payware aircraft carriers where you can practice landings, aircraft of all types and flavors and great unique scenery of the whole planet....I could tell you more of what the hobby can provide thanks to many people, did you know there are people with very exact 737 home cockpits???...Really, I hope you enjoy very much the new Game M$ has given all you gamers....we simers have already what we need to persue our hobby.Regards.

[Stathis1 0]

That is the truth! Once you get by the simplistic beginning there is a lot to really like about FLIGHT.

I want to like Flight, but please explain to me:How would i like it if i will be flying over and over at Hawai?How would i like it in the lack of atc?How would i like it when i will possibly have to wait 1-2 years or maybe more to get an airliner and places to fly it?So yes, maybe it will be fun, nice and all, but what would i do with a better graphics engine and better flight physics when it's only in Hawai for now. And even if they already have made other small places ready for download, like let's say Switzerland e.t.c, still, it is a very little portion to fly to.I will tell you what i do not like: The total spit in the face at the people that have created vatsim and fly in it, people that create planes, liveries, scenery, and generally all those people that have made flight simulation something way more than fs9 or fsx was. Essentially ms is saying to all these people, "you dared make ms flight simulator something more? Now you crawl back to your caves and dream about vatsim, atc, planes, scenery, and all that stuff that you managed to built based on our simulator. It reminds me of the current worldwide situation, and in particular my own country Greece. Someone said "you dared defy our nwo, with your patriotism, religion, family values, now we crush you".What ms gave for decades to us flightsimmers, now it takes it all back. All in the light of "lets make quick money, who cares about their stupid atc and networks".And peope that are saying ms built it, ms can tear it down, it's wrong. You do not build something nice so that you tear it down later on. You try and preserve it, and improve it. Edited January 11, 2012 by Stathis1

[Stathis1 0]

Oh, and just to clarify some things, the worldwide economic or whatever else crisis, is affecting our flight simulator too. MS decided to go for the quick money, and did not invest in a big flight simulator with global coverage. They also decided to follow the current fashion of games that don't require much intellectuality, they just have big arrows telling you where to go e.t.c. They are aiming for the masses to gain quick profit. And that wouldn't be a bad thing had they made Flight with global coverage, and an sdk, e.t.c, to also satisfy us simmers. But instead they said that Flight will appeal to the hardcore simmers too. Yeah sure, without atc, without airliners, e.t.c. Bring these things to the table, long with global coverage and maybe an sdk and then we can talk about it.

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Hi Pilota,That is a great summation of the better and more detailed part of our hobby. You may think that I do not appreciate, understand or value all the aspects you mention. I have spent almost, not quite, but almost $4,000 on flight simulation software for FS9 and FSX alone including almost every good payware and freeware scenery and aircraft offered by almost everyone, as well as more than double that spent with hardware. Along with others here I have enjoyed for more than a decade many thousands of hours in tubeliners learning complex systems and flying around the world, as well as an even greater amount of time in quality addon GA aircraft. My FSX setup is an advanced and well working flight sim, that works as good as can be made short of a full motion simulator. Not only that I have taken every opportunity to learn how FSX works and have spent most evenings, months at a time drilling down and testing software modification, tweaks and hardware configurations and sharing with others.None of this makes me special or far different than most of us obsessive simmers here, as many of my FS9 and FSX friends could exceed and surpass me in every category mentioned. My point is that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, nor am I ignorant of the virtues of what we already have in FSX, or the shortcomings of what is in FLIGHT. Rather I'm open to new ideas and approaches all the time, and look for ways of making something work instead of piling up obstacles to even trying to look for, and to enhance the good. There is nothing wrong with dissent, and in fact I am beginning to enjoy confronting and challenging entrenched closed minded thinking. We live in a world of computers and software, not real airplanes and not real gas and not real aluminum. Computers and software are an ever changing non static evolutionary and revolutionary catalyst for change, and the future belongs to those that adapt what comes to what one wants. If you want something better than what you have, make it happen.Calling those who see some real great possibilities with FLIGHT as "gamers" is disingenuous to all who have bothered to encourage moderation and a balanced approach to our discussions and sharing of our considered opinions on FLIGHT, on both sides of the issues. I have never played a computer game in my life, and could not even stand Pacman when it first came out. No one in AVSIM should be upset with opposing points of view, honestly and respectfully conveyed, but there should be little room for unfairly trashing others or their flight simming integrity under any circumstances.Kind regards,

Edited January 11, 2012 by SpiritFlyer

[Bert Pieke 7,586]

Thanks Stephen, for keeping this discussion on an even keel!For all those who believe we'll never see airliners in Flight, you've got to ask yourself why Microsoftwas pursuing an agreement with PMDG?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Bert Pieke

[xplanery 250]

Thanks Stephen, for keeping this discussion on an even keel!For all those who believe we'll never see airliners in Flight, you've got to ask yourself why Microsoftwas pursuing an agreement with PMDG?

Flyawaysimulations article says that they are planning to model some of them for Flight and then you can buy them, but it also says that whole world is not modeled in Flight at all but some smaller regions, so I doubt that we will ever see real longer haul community moving to Flight. Also mods of developers do not want to pay big amount of their sale of Microsoft, so I doubt that we will ever see like PMDG quality jets on Flight.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Second myth is that MSF will not have an SDK program.

Duh - MS said THERE WILL NOT BE AN SDK.Second fact, they dumped the developer community, and we are starting to hear about that directly from those affected.Third fact, the content creation will be closed, and sold through MS store only.FACT: Flight will *NOT* be the flight (sim) we hoped.Best regards,Robin.

[garsands 0]

Second fact, they dumped the developer community, and we are starting to hear about that directly from those affected.

How do you know they dumped ALL of the developer community?A thread has just been locked due to some of the developer community publicly falling out with each other over what we are starting to hear from them.Some have come out to say that THEY the ones saying stuff DO NOT represent the WHOLE developer community.And have told them to basiclaly shut up.One developer has shown his hatred to MS publicly on this forum & is one of the FEW that we have heard from about being dumped.There is two sides to every story,We are not going to hear from ANY of developer community IF there is ANY that have joined MS Flight team.As they MAY have been told to not say anything.

[pilota 0]

Friend Spirit....I am not putting anyone down, no sir!!!, Some people like PC Games, great for them, some like many of us like a Game-Sim that reacts as best as it can like a real aircraft. But amigo, you must see or understand that the virtue of the MS Game-Sim family up to FSX was due to a complete Open SDK, otherwise you would have had, if ever, after FS98 just a boring game. I have been fooling with computer science since I graduated back in 1969 and I can assure you my career has made me keep up to innovation in order to survive, so I appreciate new ideas and approaches in my field, since it has fed me since then. I can see some new stuff in the Flight Game, who can´t, but without outside development with the SDK you will restrict to what a few can do. Now if MS unwraps in the next few weeks or months the Flight SDK and makes it available to outside developers, even at a reasonable price, then and only then the great advantages of so many talented developers thought the world will am sure change the Flight Game to a Flight-game-Sim which would get the support of the incredible nice people that call themselves flight simmers. Otherwise, to us, its just a Game...I sure play Games with my grandsons all the time, they give me a link with them which I enjoy very much. I particularly like how those kids beat the hell out of me in one called Dirt II, its amazing!!!!....Oh, I am not a Payware developer, I am a not too good freeware one which enjoys making my own scenery and sharing them with other simers, in Nepal, India, Brazil and all over the world, a few Missions and a lot of interesting flights for those who like difficult navigation challenges. I hope to finish a nice working home made cockpit this year too....love aviation. I will end this discussion with this and please be sure I hope you enjoy the Game Flight very much, I will join you in it once it turns into a Game-Sim if you care to call it that, so sim hobbyist like me can relate to it fully like we have for so many yeas with the FS Sim Family since old 98. (do excuse my English Grammar).

[Stathis1 0]

I guess spirit is like the ms advocate here, with a good sense though. The voice of opposition to all the negative comments e.t.c. And i do not doubt that Flight will be fun. But still, to all those people that keep saying how we don't know about the sdk and all that, which part of the words "There will not be an SDK for Flight at least in the foreseable future, and also that it will be small parts of the world, and no atc and airliners for now" don't you understand? I think these are official words. We were expecting something else from ms. Making Flight a starting point for a future full simulator was not one of these things, and people do not have any patience to wait years until the developers get their stuff straight, if by the way they will expand Flight beyond the quick profit theme that it has now.So, no offence to anyone, i understand what spirit is trying to say, but it is not about optimism here, it's about the things we know. And we know enough to know that Flight is like a 5% complete flight sim.

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Friend Spirit....I am not putting anyone down, no sir!!!, Some people like PC Games, great for them, some like many of us like a Game-Sim that reacts as best as it can like a real aircraft. But amigo, you must see or understand that the virtue of the MS Game-Sim family up to FSX was due to a complete Open SDK, otherwise you would have had, if ever, after FS98 just a boring game. I have been fooling with computer science since I graduated back in 1969 and I can assure you my career has made me keep up to innovation in order to survive, so I appreciate new ideas and approaches in my field, since it has fed me since then. I can see some new stuff in the Flight Game, who can´t, but without outside development with the SDK you will restrict to what a few can do. Now if MS unwraps in the next few weeks or months the Flight SDK and makes it available to outside developers, even at a reasonable price, then and only then the great advantages of so many talented developers thought the world will am sure change the Flight Game to a Flight-game-Sim which would get the support of the incredible nice people that call themselves flight simmers. Otherwise, to us, its just a Game...I sure play Games with my grandsons all the time, they give me a link with them which I enjoy very much. I particularly like how those kids beat the hell out of me in one called Dirt II, its amazing!!!!....Oh, I am not a Payware developer, I am a not too good freeware one which enjoys making my own scenery and sharing them with other simers, in Nepal, India, Brazil and all over the world, a few Missions and a lot of interesting flights for those who like difficult navigation challenges. I hope to finish a nice working home made cockpit this year too....love aviation. I will end this discussion with this and please be sure I hope you enjoy the Game Flight very much, I will join you in it once it turns into a Game-Sim if you care to call it that, so sim hobbyist like me can relate to it fully like we have for so many yeas with the FS Sim Family since old 98. (do excuse my English Grammar).

Peace Pilota. Thank you for writing that. It is too easy in the written medium to be taken the wrong way. I too go way back a long way as my first sim was on an Apple 2e with about 1 FPS (chug-chug-chug-chug); black lines on a vomit green screen. Since FS98 I have been immersed in the hobby to the detriment of a lot of other things, sorry to say, and love it with a passion. We are on the very same side friend. So here is my hand on it! :friends:Kind regards, Edited January 11, 2012 by SpiritFlyer

[SpiritFlyer 987]

How do you know they dumped ALL of the developer community?A thread has just been locked due to some of the developer community publicly falling out with each other over what we are starting to hear from them.Some have come out to say that THEY the ones saying stuff DO NOT represent the WHOLE developer community.And have told them to basiclaly shut up.One developer has shown his hatred to MS publicly on this forum & is one of the FEW that we have heard from about being dumped.There is two sides to every story,We are not going to hear from ANY of developer community IF there is ANY that have joined MS Flight team.As they MAY have been told to not say anything.

I found the statement from Flight 1 to be very interesting, not so much about what was said about each other, but the credibility and support that was directly stated and indirectly inferred for both Microsoft and Flight. It sure seems to me that Jim indicates, or at least hints that Flight 1 is onboard, or at least haven't jumped overboard like some others have.Kind regards, Edited January 11, 2012 by SpiritFlyer

[PaoloA 0]

I agree with the Stephen / OP.Most of us don't have the beta. All of us don't know what strategy MS really has with flight. The thing we do know is that FLIGHT is trying to address more people than only simmers. Because of all the previous versions we - as simmers - don't like the idea. But who is telling us that FLIGHT won't have simming capabilities with its final release (or few months after it in the FLIGHT-market)? None of us really knows.And all who is telling that FLIGHT will be dead without third party developers is forgetting a big economic rule: if FLIGHT is a succes (also because at release it is more marketed as "easy" to fly) a lot of developers will jump in. Does anyone remember when PMDG came into play or ORBX? My point is that also third party developers evolved into the Flight Simulator world. There will always be third party developers once money can be made. Maybe not the developers who are in the sim world now (and believe me, i wish that PMDG and ORBX join in for FLIGHT but I respect it when they don't) but other developers will join in.And if MS will earn from add-ons in the marketplace, than maybe this is a obligation for them to make the sim better (and not with a lousy "Acceleration pack" but really developing the sim to a higher and better level). If the have constant revenues of FLIGHT, maybe this will have a positive effect for us because the sim is getting better. And if the sim gets better, more people buy FLIGHT, the more people buy from marketplace, the more developers join in, the more add-ons are sold through the market-place, the more revenues for FLIGHT / MS, the more updates / upgrading of the sim, the more people buy FLIGHT, the more people buy from marketplace, the more developers join in, the more....etc.So together with the OP I think we all have to wait and see which direction this FLIGHT is going.Just my 2 cents....

Edited January 11, 2012 by PaoloA

[alainneedle1 97]

Some devs. have burned their bridges already.......well, forgiveness is always possible...$$$

[fooogooo 0]

Some devs. have burned their bridges already.......well, forgiveness is always possible...$$$

This is what scares me ... Msft can react ... I am sure they will react. But they must react quickly !I am sure that Flight code and architecture is excellent, and the beta offers a great overview of some improvements for who knows what to look at, but the average sim guys are not all game or software developers, and they need obvious proofs that the box contains the cat ... but today, they are all convinced the box is empty ...