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briansommers

can you rent an aircraft and fly it for hire?

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lets suppose a minute, that I have all the right licenses etc

 

could I rent an a/c from an fbo and then use that for hire? fly some passengers from point a to point b? or would that be not allowed in the real world?


Ciao!

 

 

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Yes, yes you can. Provided you have the required ratings, and if you want them to pay you'll require a CPL, then yes you can rent the aircraft and taxi them about.


Rónán O Cadhain.

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Paperwork is an understatement. For any chartering operations get ready for a field day of paperwork with the FAA. Helped my friend get his company a Part 135 from the FAA. Missed a period in some sentence and hundreds of pages of a manual were rejected for another revision. :Cry: Then again, aside from securing an aircraft and pilot(s) this was the hardest part starting.


Sincerely,

Chase 

 

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Interesting.. twist there.. I didn't know that.. well now that would make things very easy.. (paperwork aside)


Ciao!

 

 

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A big no, no there.

 

Taking paying passenger would be considered holding out and would require you to have a part 135 certificate.


Chris Miller

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A big no, no there.

 

Taking paying passenger would be considered holding out and would require you to have a part 135 certificate.

 

Of course if you do happen to have a Part 135 certificate you could certainly do that, as long as the owner of the aircraft doesn't stipulate you may only rent it for non-commercial purposes. Plenty of large airlines lease their planes, which is kinda like renting (*hides under the table to escape all the economists / financial people who will explain why this statement is wrong*)


John-Alan Pascoe

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I'd laugh at a person that would try to rent an aircraft and try to get it on a 135 certificate. It is amazing the amount of work that needs to be done to get a certificate and maintain it. Some FSDO's are better than others and will assist you through the process. I still wouldn't want to risk all that work on a rented aircraft.


Chris Miller

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I'd laugh at a person that would try to rent an aircraft and try to get it on a 135 certificate.

I'll have a nice laugh with you. I can't imagine what an FBO operator would say hearing such a thing, let alone the 135 operator... but I wouldn't want to be close by...

 

Also you have insurance to worry about. Most things become a "forget about it" type thing once you begin to take insurance into account.

 

Back to the OP... Brian... like Chris said... in a word: "No".

 

The FAA is very strict about all this stuff. Having a Commercial Pilot License is just the beginning... very few things you can do with a Commercial... flight instructing one of those few things.

 

Working 135 you will also need certain amount of minimum times... I think 500hrs TT for VFR only and 1200hrs TT for IFR (along with a certain amount of X-C, night, etc.) these just the regs... being actually hired by a 135 outfit another story. IIRC, single engine recip ops can only be used VFR. There's a ton of regs for 135... part of those (U.S.) regs can be found here: http://ecfr.gpoacces...135_main_02.tpl

 

You might hear of "enterprising" young instructors who will call transporting people for hire "instruction"... it's a quick way to lose your license(s).

 

Chris and I (Zach too) can attest to the fact the path to flying for hire is neither a short nor inexpensive one.

 

The only possible exception to I can think of would be the FBO who is also holds a 135 Certificate... they have say, a BE58 for rent (which they own) which is also listed in their 135 certificate. But then... you would not be renting the aircraft as you would be working as an employee of the 135 operation when using to fly as an Air Taxi. Maybe Chris or Zach have heard of such of thing... I have not.

 

-Rob

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lets suppose a minute, that I have all the right licenses etc

 

could I rent an a/c from an fbo and then use that for hire? fly some passengers from point a to point b? or would that be not allowed in the real world?

 

In the U.S., the answer is "absolutely not". To carry passengers for hire from point A to B requires that the operator have a Part 135 Air Carrier certificate. Any aircraft used for charter must be listed on that operator's certificate, and be under the certificate holder's operational control. As others have posted, this involves enormous amounts of paperwork, and there are many requirements that must be met, involving the qualifications and training of flight crews, maintenance, insurance etc.

 

That said, there ARE ways to use a rented aircraft to generate revenue, assuming the pilot has the necessary ratings.

 

You could use the aircraft to give flight instruction. You could use it to do aerial photography, or other types of aerial survey work. You could tow advertising banners. All these things would, of course, require the approval of the aircraft owner from whom you rent.

 

There IS one type of revenue flying that involves carrying passengers that does not require a 135 certificate, and that is using the aircraft to give aerial tours or "scenic rides". There are restrictions though... the aircraft cannot travel between two airports - the flights must takeoff and land at the same airport. There is a distance limitation of 25nm radius from from the airport, and the flights must be conducted under VFR.

 

An individual or company in the business of giving scenic flights does require a Letter of Authorization from the FAA, which among other things, requires that each aircraft used for such flights be listed, and any pilots who fly the aircraft must be on an approved drug-screening program. This might preclude using a FBO rental aircraft.


Jim Barrett

Licensed Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic, Avionics, Electrical & Air Data Systems Specialist. Qualified on: Falcon 900, CRJ-200, Dornier 328-100, Hawker 850XP and 1000, Lear 35, 45, 55 and 60, Gulfstream IV and 550, Embraer 135, Beech Premiere and 400A, MD-80.

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All these things would, of course, require the approval of the aircraft owner from whom you rent.

 

But who (in their right mind) would open themselves up for the civil litigation and (FAA) enforcement action that could occur should an incident or accident take place? Like I said above... even if you "could", insurance requirements usually prevent such things from happening.

 

Nice to see a fellow wrench here btw.

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I'd laugh at a person that would try to rent an aircraft and try to get it on a 135 certificate

I'll have a nice laugh with you. I can't imagine what an FBO operator would say hearing such a thing, let alone the 135 operator... but I wouldn't want to be close by...

 

Third(ed)... I thought this thread was taking an amazingly unrealistic turn with simple "yes" answers! Trying to get a rental aircraft on a 135 certificate would be a ballsy proposition to make to the local FSDO (pronounced fiz-doe for the neophytes). It doesn't happen (as in it won't happen), and I challenge anyone here to state otherwise --seriously, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

 

To whoever said it above: Leasing is. not. renting. They're not the same, they're not close!

 

IIRC, single engine recip ops can only be used VFR.

 

This one, I don't recall. I'm no 135 guru but I have never heard of VFR only stipulations for SE ops. Obviously they're are prescribed minimums and then the pilot time stipulations you mentioned. I'll look more into the literature and ask our resident 135 "check carrier" or Airman Inspector. I think Chris may be the resident 135 expert here?


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But who (in their right mind) would open themselves up for the civil litigation and (FAA) enforcement action that could occur should an incident or accident take place? Like I said above... even if you "could", insurance requirements usually prevent such things from happening.

 

Nice to see a fellow wrench here btw.

 

Likewise!

 

I can't imagine many FBO's who would be willing to permit a rental aircraft to be used for something like banner towing, but flight instruction is a different matter, as that is a bread-and-butter business for a lot of FBO's.

 

Of course, in that case, it is usually the student receiving instruction who is actually the renter of the aircraft, while the instructor is either a paid employee if the FBO, or an independent contractor who has to give a cut of their fees to the FBO, while being solely responsible for paying their own taxes on earned income etc. Not a way to get rich by any means, but a time honored path to build time for bigger and better flying employment down the road.

 

After reading the regs, I'm pretty sure that an independent commercial pilot would not be able to use a rented aircraft for scenic flights under the LOA provisions of FAR 91.147. I think that he would either have to own or lease the aircraft outright, or act as a paid employee of an FBO who would offer the flights under their own LOA.


Jim Barrett

Licensed Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic, Avionics, Electrical & Air Data Systems Specialist. Qualified on: Falcon 900, CRJ-200, Dornier 328-100, Hawker 850XP and 1000, Lear 35, 45, 55 and 60, Gulfstream IV and 550, Embraer 135, Beech Premiere and 400A, MD-80.

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could I rent an a/c from an fbo and then use that for hire?

 

Brian...

 

Let me make clear (hopefully not sounding condescending) your question is a good and perfectly legitimate one... and a very interesting topic. I am sure Chris and Zach would agree with me when I say the "having a laugh" at someone trying to do that is ONLY because we have spent years in Aviation and know a good deal about how "things" operate with respect to the FAA and what is involved to be in compliance with so many regulations. So the "laugh" is not at you or the question... just the mere thought of trying something like that based on copious amounts of Federal Regs (to comply with) and the insurance requirements.

 

You're not the first person to wonder about "air taxi" and building hours (I certainly have wondered... "how about if I do this..."). It's just the way the regs are. Like I said, very few things one can do legitimately with a Commercial ticket (Jim listed most if not all).

 

You would have probably gotten similar response had you asked, "If I buy an airplane, I can do my own maintenance just like if it were my car, right?" I dare say some (here) would give the advice, "Sure, have at it... it's your plane." which couldn't be further "from the truth" of what actual (preventative) maintenance you could (legally) perform.

 

I found a pdf from the Fresno FSDO "Adding an Aircraft to Air Carrier Operations"... you can see some of the paperwork involved. http://www.faa.gov/a.../addacftnew.pdf

 

Also, just did a search a moment ago (I was searching an FAR and got sidetracked :P ) came across an excellent article about using one's own airplane to leaseback to a 135 op (on Avweb). http://www.avweb.com...t/184520-1.html

 

After reading the regs, I'm pretty sure that an independent commercial pilot would not be able to use a rented aircraft for scenic flights under the LOA provisions of FAR 91.147.

 

Here again insurance is involved. You rent an aircraft, dollars to donuts your rental agreement will not permit any kind of commercial operations. Plus you will have to come up with a drug testing program. So the FBO will probably be off the hook (not named a co-defendant) for an accident / incident.

 

One more time... many times you can be in compliance with the FARs, but it is the Insurance (minimums) that will dictate what you can and cannot do.

 

-Rob

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Not laughing at you, Brian, just the thought of someone renting a beat up 172 to take people somewhere.

 

There are a lot of single pilot charter operators. They usually own there own aircraft though.


Chris Miller

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