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Tom Allensworth

Lockheed P3D and EULA's for Add-On's

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With the continuing advancement of P3D by Lockheed Martin, more flight simulation enthusiasts are experimenting with, if not adopting entirely, this flight simulator. However, there is considerable confusion over which third party products currently available can be used, without violating your EULA or other restrictions, within P3D.

 

Questions such as:

 

Does my existing End User License Agreement (EULA) allow me to use my add-on in P3D?

If not, do I need to purchase another license to install it in P3D?

Assuming my EULA allows me to, will my current product work in P3D?

 

And there are many more. We recently have had some incidents within the forums that arose from lack of knowledge concerning products, EULA's and use within the P3D simulator. As a result, we have undertaken a survey of commercial providers about their EULA's and products for P3D.

 

You can find the beginnnings of this here: http://forum.avsim.net/page/AVSIM%20Pages/p3d_.html

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Nice work Tom. Only wished that this has happened earlier, possibly before last week... Anyway, good to have a license compatibility list along the addon compatibility list. Shouldn't this thread be pinned?

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Thank you Tom for.. How do I word this.... Riding out the `bumps in the road' with the growth of Prepar3D and the community following along with it. I could see the particular issue you are trying to address being one that might persuade another forum owner etc to totally do away with a stand alone Prepar3D section as there is just too much `grey area' in discussion to moderate.. Obviously the Prepar3D forum probably requires a bit more *eyes* on what is said.. So I can't speak for everyone but I do appreciate you not just throwing a lock on the door.

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Does my existing End User License Agreement (EULA) allow me to use my add-on in P3D?

If not, do I need to purchase another license to install it in P3D?

Assuming my EULA allows me to, will my current product work in P3D?

 

 

 

Excellent initiative. As a very long time simmer, I've never been in breach of any copyright and don't want either to be in the future or enter into endless byzantine discussions that only an American lawyer would relish ^_^ .

 

As P3D might very well be the future of my hobby, I draw a clear line in the sand. I will not go from FSX to P3D in the immmediate future but I will not, from now on, buy any aircraft, scenery or utility that the developer forbids to transport from FSX to P3D, including asking to pay for each version, that as long as P3D is sufficiently near to FSX, not demanding extra work except adapting the installer. Furthermore, I will be reluctant to buy products for which the developper is not ready to give a friendly hand to the user to do the transport if there is no installer.

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I don't want to start a flame war but let me explain our position as RAZBAM Sims. Yes, we would like for you to just install our products in either FSX or P3D. Unfortunately P3D IS a different beast than FSX. The main differences are not only in the graphics department but in how it interacts with the user (you). For our last two products we had to make changes to the modules that make them work. Why? Because P3D Simconnect versions is more advanced than FSX's. Also P3D has cleaned the FDE a lot, forcing us to create two different .air files for each simulator. In other words, as P3D evolves, we are finding ourselves actually developing two different aircrafts. FSX aircrafts will work on P3D, but not all P3D aircraft will work on FSX.

 

That's why we decided that if our aircraft has a P3D installer, then that means that it was developed with P3D standards and that takes time and money as well.

 

We won't chase you with lawyers if you port a FSX aircraft that has a P3D version, but you have forfeited your right to tech support.

This policy may change, but it is the one we have for the time being.

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I don't want to start a flame war but let me explain our position as RAZBAM Sims. Yes, we would like for you to just install our products in either FSX or P3D. Unfortunately P3D IS a different beast than FSX. The main differences are not only in the graphics department but in how it interacts with the user (you). For our last two products we had to make changes to the modules that make them work. Why? Because P3D Simconnect versions is more advanced than FSX's. Also P3D has cleaned the FDE a lot, forcing us to create two different .air files for each simulator. In other words, as P3D evolves, we are finding ourselves actually developing two different aircrafts. FSX aircrafts will work on P3D, but not all P3D aircraft will work on FSX.

 

That's why we decided that if our aircraft has a P3D installer, then that means that it was developed with P3D standards and that takes time and money as well.

 

We won't chase you with lawyers if you port a FSX aircraft that has a P3D version, but you have forfeited your right to tech support.

This policy may change, but it is the one we have for the time being.

 

Thanks for the clarification. As I said in my post "that as long as P3D is sufficiently near to FSX, not demanding extra work except adapting the installer." If the product needs much more than shuffling the files around, an additional cost would indeed be entirely justified. This will be obviously increasingly the case with the evoluton of P3D - I hope so at least for it means getting rid of FSX flaws at the end of the day :smile: . Not sure that, at that stage, most of existing products need a complete reworking.

 

BTW, what do you mean by P3D has cleaned the FDE a lot, forcing us to create two different .air files for each simulator ? Not" cleaned " like in "dumbed down" :wink: ?

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We won't chase you with lawyers if you port a FSX aircraft that has a P3D version, but you have forfeited your right to tech support.

 

This is what I call the right decision! Excellent stand guys. I just wish all developers were like that.

 

Some devs are going to chase you even if they don't have a P3D version if you port and post shots...

 

I'm quite sure that when we reach V2, with update DX and whatever is coming with it, we are going to be seeing less and less compatibility. This is when devs are going to have to become more involved, do some extra work and of course charge for it.

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BTW, what do you mean by P3D has cleaned the FDE a lot, forcing us to create two different .air files for each simulator ? Not" cleaned " like in "dumbed down" :wink: ?

 

It seems that they have cleaned the FDE a lot. Case in point, with the Harrier, even after dialing it down, we still are in the process of "lowering" some values to near real life because the engine is grossly overpowered when using FSX values.

Unfortunately FDE is one of the areas where documentation is almost non-existant so it is more an art than a science.

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This i feel this is wrong as we are buying the product and they are getting paid as it should be and putting us who are buying addons in the same group as those who use pirated addons who don't pay is wrong.

 

I don't mind losing support if we are allowed and if we are not then i always have the choice to resell providing i have brought the addon from inside the EU and that is something the dev's cant stop.

 

Wrong, let me explain to you why....take my driver's license for example, it says on it that I can drive cars and motocycles only = license agreement.

 

I agreed to that when I signed to get it = the DMV got their money.

 

Having said that, nothing can stop me from going to a dealership and buy a 18 wheeler,...so, because I got me a 18 wheelers does that give me the right to drive it on the road...NO...why?? because my driver's license (license agreement) does not allow me to do so....sure I can drive my 18 wheeler the road no matter what, but if I get cut my insurance (3PD) will not cover me = support, because I did not respect my agreement.

 

This has NOTHING to do with pirated product, this has everything to do with the license agreement you signed, simple as that, or should I say having your cake and eating it too.

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but if I get cut my insurance (3PD) will not cover me = support, because I did not respect my agreement.

 

If you really want to go that comparison - by driving an 18-wheeler without a license, you actually don't *know* (or are not trained) to drive it, and thus are a danger to human lives.

 

Who is threatened (except maybe lawyers, and not even with their life) if you port an unlicensed product into P3D?

 

Gotta weigh in the results of the actions a bit.

 

Please don't flame me, I'm not saying it's OK to port an unlicensed product, just that the comparison is way off.

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If you really want to go that comparison - by driving an 18-wheeler without a license, you actually don't *know* (or are not trained) to drive it, and thus are a danger to human lives.

 

Who is threatened (except maybe lawyers, and not even with their life) if you port an unlicensed product into P3D?

 

Gotta weigh in the results of the actions a bit.

 

You missed the point Word Not Allowed, you assumed I did not know how to drive a 18 wheeler, maybe I do know how to drive a 18 wheeler but I did not renew my license for it, my point to gandy was ..."DOES THE LICENSE AGREEMENT YOU SIGNED ALLOW YOU TO DO SO"...

 

Like you said... I'm not saying it's OK to port an unlicensed product....I agree with you on that.

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Nah, I assumed you don't know since you are not trained, officially at least. Peace man ^_^

 

Oh and btw. I never "signed" anything :P. Thank God.

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Nah, I assumed you don't know since you are not trained, officially at least. Peace man ^_^

 

Oh and btw. I never "signed" anything :P. Thank God.

 

:Peace:

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We won't chase you with lawyers if you port a FSX aircraft that has a P3D version, but you have forfeited your right to tech support.

This policy may change, but it is the one we have for the time being.

 

This is a very sensible and level-headed view that I would like for more developers to adopt or at least openly acknowledge.

 

Who is threatened (except maybe lawyers, and not even with their life) if you port an unlicensed product into P3D?

 

 

+1

 

I don't understand the 'danger' in moving a product over to an improved platform.

 

-Maybe it does violate the EULA to port the product to P3D. - You don't get support but, beyond that, what is the big deal with developers being so strict about porting products?

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-Maybe it does violate the EULA to port the product to P3D. - You don't get support but, beyond that, what is the big deal with developers being so strict about porting products?

 

At the end It all come down to $$$.

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At the end It all come down to $$$.

 

They aren't going to get a cent from me if they are going to try to 're-sell' their products in a new installer... :lol:

 

I really like what FSDreamTeam and Carenado are doing.... If only others would follow! :rolleyes:

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Problem is there is too little real information and quite a bit of misinformation available about the issue which leads to some weird speculations. for example - who can and cannot buy the "academic" version? Answer - anybody who has $50. The "academic" version is a ploy intituted by many manufacturers to allow price fluctuation on a product. Not a big deal. Anyone who is not a student buy the "academic" version of MS Office? Did ANYONE ever ask you for your student ID? And they never will. According to the spirit of the "academic" EULA (both LM and MS), the purchaser is violating the agreement. But in practice the "intent" of the EULA appears quite different, else both LM and MS would be chasing down the violators.

 

The situation with P3D and add-ons can be much more complex with some developers who have other business areas. For example - suppose a developer made a product priced for retail FSX. Suppose the same developer provided the SAME product, under a different name for a commercial purpose at a greatly increased price? Now let's say this vendors retail product is apparently working in the "commercial" version of P3D. If I were a commercial customer of developer, I *might* ge quite annoyed. That's just one possible scenario that stretches the " i paid for it and i can use it where I wish" logic.

 

I have a feeling it's leading more to a "I paid for it and I can use it as I wish but I won't tell too many people that I did it" logic.

 

Personally, if I port any add on I have purchased over to P3d and the developer later releases a P3D only version, I will support them and purchase it. Up until that time, If I can get it to work, I will without fear of retribution or any guilt whatsoever.

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"I paid for it and I can use it as I wish but I won't tell too many people that I did it"

 

:lol:

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Did ANYONE ever ask you for your student ID?

 

People have shown me their IDs - but not on my request :lol:

 

Makes all sense IMO. And btw. I paid for REX-E P3D key... supporting is the key.

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And btw. I paid for REX-E P3D key... supporting is the key.

 

I don't mind a very minimal fee; I was referring to the idea that 3PDs could charge full price for P3D.

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I don't mind a very minimal fee; I was referring to the idea that 3PDs could charge full price for P3D.

 

Of course charging is not bad, but you have to take the whole thing into perspective... imagine buying a FSX version of NGX for $70, and then PMDG wanting $200 for commercial version. Or more? The thing is we are still using the sim at home. Privately. Not commercially.

This is where the problem is, something vgbaron pointed quite correctly - many people buy the student version, although not being a student. Why? Because they are using it at home. Because MS wants them to.

So how about the same scheme for P3D and 3PD addons for P3D? Man, that sounds sick... :lol:

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Umm. I always assumed addon software was licensed to the user, Not the simulator?

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Futher more, about $$$, the day that P3D will be fully DX11 compliant what do you think will happen...of course all your today's addons will work with P3D DX11... BUT...your addons will not show any DX11 benefit as they were made under DX9 or DX10 ...

 

So from there let say that a 3PD make a new version of their addon (let say Orca airport) P3D DX11 compatible and it's two times better compare to what you already have under DX9 or DX10....what will you do if you want this addon, you'll have to buy the same addon again unless the same 3PD make a patch (if that is possible) to convert your existing Orca airport addons to be DX11 compatible....will a patch like that be free of charge....I don't think so, that was just an example about one airport, what about a whole region like PNW....phew.

 

See, you'll have to buy the same addons all over again (or a patch) if you want them fully DX11 compatible unless you get a free patch for every addons you have...do I hear "can of worm"...

 

PS: to get a real answer concerning my point would be to ask the question to 3PD making addons for P3D.

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