Good point about using aileron on the ground. I didn't mention it to try to avoid getting too complicated but when taxiing and on take off in really strong winds, you do use aileron to stop the wing from tipping.

 

BUT it gets even more complicated -- if the the wind is off the nose, then you will apply aileron toward the wind - i.e. the aileron toward the crosswind is up. But if during taxiing the wind is aft of the wing, then you apply opposite aileron so when the wind hits the wing from behind, it hits the down pointing aileron and that helps keep that wing down....

 

Want to get even more confused??? LOL... If the wind is really strong, you will want to use forward elevator to keep the nose firmly down. But if the wind is coming from behind, then you use up elevator so once again, the wind hits the elevator in the up position and that forces the nose down.

 

Of course the very best solution is - if the forecast wind is more than five knots, tell the despatcher you have a migraine, go to the airport bar, drink a few beers, flirt with the flight attendants, then go back to the hotel and try again the next day!

:lol:

Cheers

Ian

 

Yes, as mentioned don't touch the rudder in approach. There is no need to touch the rudder, the wind is pushing against the vertical stab, into wind aileron balances it out and puts you into a crab.

 

If you take a look at most airlines SOP it is hammered into flight crew that the rudder pedals should be used as an expensive footrest. Unless in an engine out situation or decrabing, stay off them while in flight.

That's true Rob - and sadly so. I hate to sound like an old geezer, even though I am rapidly becoming one, but IMO basic stick and rudder skills are still worth having and as the bean counters and computer programmers intrude more and more into flight training and dictate cockpit procedures, the instinctive use of that "expensive foot rest" is becoming a lost art - and one that in some situations is going to have tragic results.

:unsure:

Hey Ian,

 

Firstly I have to say I truly enjoy reading your posts on Avsim, also agree with you completely regarding many flight crew today lacking hands on flying time due to company pressure or fear of screwing up and being called into the office for tea biscuits!

 

On the other hand the rudder on large modern aircraft just shouldn't be touched unless completey nessasery, that is one thing you should definitely leave to the automatics. Something that really is hammered home to flight crew in training today and rightly so.

 

Kind regards

... some GA chaps (sometimes) applying all of the above at a club day at Tokoroa:

 

Kiwiflyer & Cowpatz have basically said it all, excellent material.

 

Thanks guys.

 

But throw in a tailwheel aircraft and things get interesting in a crosswind especially on the ground with the weathercocking tendency grabbing your attention.

 

Taxi using rudder and brakes as necessary to keep straight and position the controls depending on the direction of the wind.

 

As an experienced flight instructor, this is what I teach ....

 

On approach I use the crab into wind method ( wings level, balanced and heading offset to counter the drift). But on short final ( 200-300 m out from the threshold ) I recommend getting the fuse aligned with the center line of the runway and into wind wing low to counter the drift.

 

My reason for this is , if the aircraft can't be held on the extended center line in that crosswind then you're going to have control problems on the ground , with the inevitable groundloop. Best look for another runway more into wind.

 

Remember the wind is not a constant, it varies in strength & direction so the control inputs are constantly changing.

 

Good fun watching a student mastering the correct technique.

 

Pete.

Quite a few airlines require hand flying the approach (if not a CAT III IFR landing) below a certain AGL altitude with out AP coupling to the flight director (which can be used for guidance). For one thing it may be required periodically to keep pilot certification current for aviation and insurance rules plus whatever the airline dictates.

... some GA chaps (sometimes) applying all of the above at a club day at Tokoroa:

 

Great video, even more interesting than watching the airliners fighting crosswinds. This is an interesting thread and enjoyable reading. During the days when I was taking flying lessons, I never once had a crosswind landing. The wind out here in the desert is pretty reliable, and all the runways are aligned with the prevailing winds. The only time it gets tricky is during the monsoon season, when we have Meso Cyclones wreaking havoc in the Phoenix metro area. Sky Harbor is regularly shut down when such weather is near. And light aircraft are best kept tied up on the ground. What is really fun is coming in on a commercial flight during monsoon season, enjoying how the airline pilots navigate around the severe weather cells. The approaches are a constant banking left and right to avoid the cells and get in position for final.

 

Regards,

 

John

At the risk of committing heresy, Flight models crosswind landings pretty well, although weather variables are limited. I flew the Robin that is in the background of the planes at Tokoroa. Had to do the BFR crosswind check in 14kts. 'Get this and I'll sign you off' said Mr Instructor while on finals... It was passable.

Hey Ian,

 

Firstly I have to say I truly enjoy reading your posts on Avsim, also agree with you completely regarding many flight crew today lacking hands on flying time due to company pressure or fear of screwing up and being called into the office for tea biscuits!

 

On the other hand the rudder on large modern aircraft just shouldn't be touched unless completey nessasery, that is one thing you should definitely leave to the automatics. Something that really is hammered home to flight crew in training today and rightly so.

 

Kind regards

Hi Rob

I'm sure you're right - I truly am an old geezer and my flying career ended over 20 years ago. The only multi I've flown since then is a King Air. Given that the first real world "heavy iron" I flew was a DC3 (last of the breed in NZ in PAX service) you can get where my "stick and rudder" obsession comes from! LOL

Cheers mate

Ian

ps. For you Kiwis out there, that DC3 was part of the McDonald's Restaurant in Taupo the last I saw it. ZK-CAW. Before it got converted to a top dresser, it was owned by a start up called South Pacific Airways in the early 70's that went bust after a few months.... Was fun while it lasted!

... some GA chaps (sometimes) applying all of the above at a club day at Tokoroa:

 

!

It's always easy to crticize someone when sitting safely at home watching a video long after the event B) but I couldn't help but thinking that a number of those attempts might have been a lot more successful if the pilot had used reduced flap.(In at least one attempt they did and it was one of the better landings) In a Cessna, (or any high wing aircraft) full flap really does act like the proverbial "barn door" and significantly increases the weather vane effect. And if it was me, I definitely would have used the "wing down" technique and put the upwind wheel on the ground while yawing the nose straight with rudder. But with all the turbulence coming off those trees, no matter what you did, the results probably would have been a bit "rocky." EXCELLENT VIDEO!

All very easy to be an armchair critic but you will learn more 'what not to do' from watching the above video. In fact a few were lucky to get away with it. In a high wing aircraft there is plenty of wing tip clearance to really get the upwind wing down. This inclines the lift vector to help counter the drift. You may have also noticed that as soon as most of the aircraft touched down they simply relaxed and things got a little interesting. Keep flying the aircraft until taxi speed for a trike and until you picket a taildragger. Many also just neutralised the controls as soon as they got airborne. Keep in the crossed controls for just a little longer. If for any reason you contacted the ground again, shortly after the wheels first leaving the ground (such as in gusty and turbulent conditions), then life might just rapidly turn pear shaped.

Still we all have to start somewhere

All very easy to be an armchair critic but you will learn more 'what not to do' from watching the above video. In fact a few were lucky to get away with it. In a high wing aircraft there is plenty of wing tip clearance to really get the upwind wing down. This inclines the lift vector to help counter the drift. You may have also noticed that as soon as most of the aircraft touched down they simply relaxed and things got a little interesting. Keep flying the aircraft until taxi speed for a trike and until you picket a taildragger. Many also just neutralised the controls as soon as they got airborne. Keep in the crossed controls for just a little longer. If for any reason you contacted the ground again, shortly after the wheels first leaving the ground (such as in gusty and turbulent conditions), then life might just rapidly turn pear shaped.

Still we all have to start somewhere

Amen Bro! :lol:

Is it possible to pin this thread? It's a very helpful tutorial especially for people without RW flying experience.

 

Thanks

Harald