No Kyle, the OP asked a simple question which was hijacked by a lot of people trying to show they know more than others or their opinions should be counted over others.

 

Will,

 

Hijacked assumes the thread moved from the original topic to another side topic. Never once did it do that. Every post, while addressing the concerns of the other posters about the validity of the information, addressed the original question. The problem is, that simple question has a complex answer.

 

Nobody is asking anybody to change everybody's perceptions or misconceptions and thus starting a futile quest which was never the intention of the original post.

 

I beg to differ. The thread was started under the assumption the aircraft was working improperly because of a preconceived notion about the truth.

My options were:

Agree, and tell him the autopilot/FMC was performing improperly regarding the 250/10 rule - lie

Disagree, and tell him the autopilot/FMC was performing properly with no explanation as to why - does little to help, because he'd assume something was wrong

Disagree, and give him information that would serve to help the rest of his sim days and help in understanding why the plane is acting that way - truth

 

Nobody asked me to do this, no. But I volunteered my information to help someone, yet I still get cut down, even by you. So tell me again...why exactly do I go out of my way to help people here?

 

I feel sorry for the OP, i hope he is not afraid to post a question again.

 

Mods, suggest this thread is closed please.

 

This was a perfectly healthy conversation. I seriously don't understand why people always ask mods to close threads after a little disagreement. Disagreement is healthy.

The last thing I want to do is cause an argument which is where this thread is right now. Thanks for the info. But all the controversy doesn't clear anything up. Regulations r there for a reason and I find it hard to believe that you can just break it at will if need be.

 

I will go ask some pilots myself directly.

 

My sum is not a game to me. I like to keep things as real as possible. And if 250 is needed below 10 then so be it. The md11 is not going to stall at 250. And to get to fl100 is not long.

 

Btw I just listened to live at at various airports. Depaarture frequencies almost never referred to speed. In a couple hours a few pilots called climbing to 10000 under restriction. Arrivals is different obviously with all kinds of Speed restrictions.

 

Lets just leave this as is. No need to get heated.

 

Thanks

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

Ok I got in contact with my uncle who flew the DC10 and the 747 for the longest time for Canadian Airlines in the day. Here is the lowdown and it explains it very well and there should be no more confusion. It satisfied my answer.

 

 

"Descent is the normal 250> 10,000 ft. However ATC frequently tells you to keep your speed up, which means 250 restriction is lifted. This is done to facilitate arrival traffic.

On departure, you are normally not restricted by any speeds as there is no need to control you. It does not affect ATC as most aircraft are heading in different directions, and most heavy clean speeds are higher than 250, especially the 10 & 11 as they forgot to put a wing on them....

In summary, the incoming AC are having to be fit into a pattern but the departing AC do not. That is the main reason for the restriction.

On departure we always did ask for a high speed climb, and were never denied. We may get a vector however."

I don't know your background scandinavian13 but your post is crap

I, and most people who follow this forum, do know Kyles background and generally appreciate his input. And while his posts are sometimes long winded and occaisionally take a while to get to the point, and, as you may have noticed, there are quite a lot of them, they have never, ever, in my experience, been crap.

 

You have demonstrated that you do not fully understand the 250/10000 guidelines, and in that, you do not need to feel too bad. It is amazing how many simmers just dont get it. However, what you should feel bad about is the fact that you have demonstrated in public that you are unable or unwilling to accept and absorb new information when it is presented to you in a way that can be easily and independantly verifed. So may I politely suggest that the next time you feel the urge to call someone elses post 'crap', you take a few moments first to check that you actually know what you are talking about.

The last thing I want to do is cause an argument which is where this thread is right now. Thanks for the info. But all the controversy doesn't clear anything up. Regulations r there for a reason and I find it hard to believe that you can just break it at will if need be.

 

I'm not trying to cause an argument, but I get frustrated that I very clearly stated a regulation - note, not a pilot's experience or interpretation of the rule (like you provided in the later post) - which is what you get held to. If something happened and an examiner was questioning your actions and said "well, my uncle said," you're going to get roasted. However, if you said "I operated my aircraft according to FAR 91.117(d," they'd have nothing else to say.

 

They put 91.117(d in there for a reason. So yes, that regulation is there for a reason:

To specifically allow aircraft to fly faster than 250 knots under 10,000 in an effort to allow them a larger margin of safety, speed-wise.

 

My sum is not a game to me. I like to keep things as real as possible. And if 250 is needed below 10 then so be it. The md11 is not going to stall at 250. And to get to fl100 is not long.

 

My sim isn't a game, and neither is my real world flying, or my job. Speaking from an air traffic controller and FAA perspective, 250 is not needed under 10. If you're following 91.117(d, you don't need to follow the 250 knot restriction. I understand that's against everything everyone has ever told you, but it's the truth.

 

Btw I just listened to live at at various airports. Depaarture frequencies almost never referred to speed. In a couple hours a few pilots called climbing to 10000 under restriction. Arrivals is different obviously with all kinds of Speed restrictions.

 

You're definitely right there. Not once will you hear a 744, MD11 or DC/MD10 pilot (among others) ask for an approval to go above 250. It's simply understood. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if you hear it, it's because a pilot doesn't understand the reg. Canada and the US handle it slightly differently, by the way, and I've been answering for the US side.

 

 

I, and most people who follow this forum, do know Kyles background and generally appreciate his input. And while his posts are sometimes long winded and occaisionally take a while to get to the point, and, as you may have noticed, there are quite a lot of them, they have never, ever, in my experience, been crap.

 

Thanks Paul. I'm with ya on the longwinded part. I've always tried to work on that.

Ironically, this is probably the shortest response in a while...

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I checked Oz regs. There is no speed limit for IFR traffic in class C airspace (ie, major airports) except as noted. There is the 250kt limit for VFR traffic up to 10k'. STARs have speed limits to them which is why you can hear 'cancel speed restriction above 7,000' for example. Happy to expand on that via PM if anyone wants to know.

 

Mike

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I checked Oz regs. There is no speed limit for IFR traffic in class C airspace (ie, major airports) except as noted. There is the 250kt limit for VFR traffic up to 10k'. STARs have speed limits to them which is why you can hear 'cancel speed restriction above 7,000' for example. Happy to expand on that via PM if anyone wants to know.

 

Mike

 

Mike, suggest you look at class C a little closer than that. In some instances class C begins at F125.

 

The restriction on 250 below 10'000 can be found on AIPs, ERSA and other documents.

 

Mike, suggest you look at class C a little closer than that. In some instances class C begins at F125.

 

The restriction on 250 below 10'000 can be found on AIPs, ERSA and other documents.

 

What speed restriction does IFR traffic have in C class airspace in Australia?

Is it different to VFR or SVFR traffic speed restrictions in Class C airspace in Australia?

(if not, why is VFR and SVFR traffic specifically mentioned in the Class C summary)

 

 

If you disagree with this document, take it up with the Civil Aviation Saftey Authority of Australia, cos that's where I copy-pasted this from.

 

Of course if you have another document which contradicts this... I frankly wouldn't be entirely surprized when it came to law. However if I was operating an MD11 (or 747) out of YSSY Sydney on a flight to the USA direct or similar, an the option was

1. retract the flaps at 4000ft to get clean but fly at 280kts
    
   
2. leave the flaps out till 10,000ft
    
   
3. Retract the flaps, disconnect autothrottle and climb at just a few knots above stickshaker/stall horn speed.
   

I'd pick option 1 with confidence in reference to the above document.

 

Class D, E and G may be a different consideration, and may be airport specific. (Canberra and Avalon become class G and sometimes take heavys for instance. Some class D's ie Hobart may occasionally take a heavy, most other class G/D airfields wouldn't have the runway for a near MTOW 747 anyway.)

 

Trent Hopkinson

 

What speed restriction does IFR traffic have in C class airspace in Australia?

Is it different to VFR or SVFR traffic speed restrictions in Class C airspace in Australia?

(if not, why is VFR and SVFR traffic specifically mentioned in the Class C summary)

 

 

If you disagree with this document, take it up with the Civil Aviation Saftey Authority of Australia, cos that's where I copy-pasted this from.

 

Of course if you have another document which contradicts this... I frankly wouldn't be entirely surprized when it came to law. However if I was operating an MD11 (or 747) out of YSSY Sydney on a flight to the USA direct or similar, an the option was

1. retract the flaps at 4000ft to get clean but fly at 280kts
    
   
2. leave the flaps out till 10,000ft
    
   
3. Retract the flaps, disconnect autothrottle and climb at just a few knots above stickshaker/stall horn speed.
   

I'd pick option 1 with confidence in reference to the above document.

 

Trent Hopkinson

 

Cmon Trent, are you telling me that ifr dont have speed restrictions in control zones below 10000?

 

The document you show is correct, but it is supplemented by other documents when speaking of control zones for class c airspace.

 

You are about to go into world flight, try speeding over 250 knots in ifr in class c below 10000ft and see what Tuppy or Rob Grant tell you about it.

 

 

To be honest, climb out and descent are two different scenarios, if you are on climb and go at 280 knots, unless you have a significant tailwind the controller would not have a clue what your actual ias is.

 

On descent it is a different story, again talking about terminal areas!! You need to be below 250 because the flow calculates to the gates at certain speeds.

 

And it is all adaptive, if you want to go faster, all you need to do is ask.

Cmon Trent, are you telling me that ifr dont have speed restrictions in control zones below 10000?

 

The document you show is correct, but it is supplemented by other documents when speaking of control zones for class c airspace.

 

You are about to go into world flight, try speeding over 250 knots in ifr in class c below 10000ft and see what Tuppy or Rob Grant tell you about it.

 

In the WorldFlight 747-400 full motion sim? I can guarentee they don't run flap 10 to 10,000ft regularly... but then again they don't fly 10 hour legs regularly either.

 

Most Australian STAR's (yes, even the good old SY3 radar vectored departure) include a speed restriction and it is usually 250kts below 10,000ft. This is why you hear "Qantas 11 Cancel Speed" so often if you listen to ATC from Sydney. It's because the 747-400 tanked up with 107 tonnes of fuel to go to KLAX simply can't retract to clean flaps below 250kts. Sometimes they restrict it to 280kts, sometimes you get a full "Cancel Speed" in which case it could legally fly to mach 0.98 if it wanted to. Depends on what ATC needs.

 

In the actually rare case they can't give it above 250kts right away you will often hear it get a vector first then the speed lifted.

 

Although for worldflight this year it won't be a factor for me cos I'm on a 737 sim. so even 200kts to 10,000ft would be easy

 

Last year on the 744, it was normal ops to start the takeoff roll with VNAV engaged, and retract flaps on schedule. If heavy on the 6+ hour legs, this could potentially end up with a flap clean speed above 250kts.

 

During Cross the Pond last year (November 2011) I was at 261kts at about 6000ft onwards after takeoff. They did have to vector me onto a shortcut due to a slowpoke bumbling around 160kts to 3000ft on climb. Considering my V2 speed was 163kts (and my climbout speed was 178) there was no way I could have been "Speed restricted" into staying behind them.

 

As it was the USA, and because I'm familiar with the FAR 91.117 requirement (Flew 747-400 sims for WorldFlight, random odd topics come up when you have 3 people stuck in a moving tin box 6ft off the ground for 5 hours) I didn't even talk to ATC to tell them I was going to be 11kts higher than 250kts, because well... I didn't have to.

 

So yes, if I was flying the WorldFlight 747-400 QF25 and VNAV pushed us up above 250kts with flap up, I wouldn't speed intervene, leave flap out, leave VNAV for FL-CHG 250 knots or talk to ATC about it unless I was departing a class A airfield, or was on a SID with a specified restriction, or saw a TCAS target just a few miles ahead. If it was the case, I'd leave the flap selection out and talk to ATC to request faster. If I had to specify how much faster, I'd tell them 280 knots (even if I only needed 255). If you get a "Cancel Speed" and go into VNAV-CLM page on the FMS, and delete the 250/10000ft restriction, you'd likley to get something in the 300+kt range - the actual most economical climb speed in a 744. The "263kts" (or whatever speed) flap up speed is just the slowest it can go clean, leaving it with the saftey factor so it can enter turbulence, and be turning at the same time without entering stickshaker.

 

(SIDs with Restrictions may have other reasons for the Speed restriction, namely turn radius. Usually this restriction will be far less than 250kts, ie the Sydney's MARUB3 departure has a max 180kts speed till on the outbound radial. A departure brief should have covered this, and in those cases, leave the flap out. If the restriction is just the usual "250kts below 10000ft even though you are flying a straight line" I'd just talk to ATC to lift the restriction, possibly even before lining up on the runway, or on first contact with Departures.)

 

Trent Hopkinson

Yup, again, two different scenarios, speed on climb out is listed in the SID and terminal area restrictions but hardly ever really enforced.

 

Speed on descent in terminal area is a different story, but we are really discussing semantics, the atc display shows groundspeed, nor ias. I remember seeing a 767 with a groundspeed of 310 on descent, when i asked him he was doing 250 but had a hell of a tailwind!

Yup, again, two different scenarios, speed on climb out is listed in the SID and terminal area restrictions but hardly ever really enforced.

 

Speed on descent in terminal area is a different story, but we are really discussing semantics, the atc display shows groundspeed, nor ias. I remember seeing a 767 with a groundspeed of 310 on descent, when i asked him he was doing 250 but had a hell of a tailwind!

 

Approach is indeed a very different scenario than departure.

 

On arrival, below 10,000ft you are (assuming a 3 degree decent profile) somewhere around 30 miles from touchdown.

 

Also you wouldn't be near Maximum weight, so it is likley the minimum clean is around the 245kts area in an MD11, and on the 747 minimum clean would be even lower (bigger wing, more lift) and I reccon a 747 would easily be at a 240kts minum clean or lower.

 

If you are at 30 miles doing 300 knots, your coming in hot and will need some speedbreak, not just to "not exceed 250kts below 10,000ft", but for decent and speed management. Yes 747's have drag (more than 737's anyway). But they also have inertia, and all that speed has to go somewhere, and it's better to put that speed into good speed management, than into a holding pattern to get down or into the breaks as heat (or off the end of the runway).

 

The MD11 of course has less lift on the wings, so if you were tankering fuel, or have way too much fuel on arrival due to planning errors (oops, didn't take that 100kt jetstream across the atlantic into account maybe?) you may indeed need slats extended to get below 250kts.

 

... and a 155kts Vref flap 50. :S

 

In that case it's time to bite the bullet, get the passengers seated early, and stick the slats out at 10,000ft on decent. And if all is going right, you only have 30 or maximum 40 miles to run from that point, and none of it climbing.

 

 

... on Groundspeed. I was once asked to slow to 250 knots passing 8000ft in my Beechcraft Duke BE60. The thing has a max VNE speed of 210kias and I was actually at about 190kias.

I did have to text the controller that I was unable on 2 accounts, First I was doing 190kts, and my aircraft couldn't go faster than 210kts. The reply was "You need to be less than 250kts below 10,000ft". I facepalmed so hard I hurt my nose.

 

wierd thing: I only had about 50kts tailwind component at the time so even my Groundspeed should have been under 250kts.

 

Trent Hopkinson

Mike, suggest you look at class C a little closer than that. In some instances class C begins at F125.

 

The restriction on 250 below 10'000 can be found on AIPs, ERSA and other documents.

 

AIP ENR 1.1, Section 65, Aircraft Speeds. "N/A, except where specified in ERSA for a particular location." I wouldn't have posted it if I hadn't checked. In some cases class C starts at 4,500' or heck, even SFC.

 

AIP ENR 1.1, Section 65, Aircraft Speeds. "N/A, except where specified in ERSA for a particular location." I wouldn't have posted it if I hadn't checked. In some cases class C starts at 4,500' or heck, even SFC.

 

And where do you think it goes down to 4500ft???

 

Class C airspace is normally above 10000 except in terminal areas. In terminal areas it goes below 10000ft and terminal area rules apply.

 

Regulations r there for a reason and I find it hard to believe that you can just break it at will if need be.

Cutting through the fluff in this thread, in Europe at least, if you want/need faster, you only have to ask, and if conditions permit, ATC will grant it. Sure, very close to the airport will be unlikely, but once you're about 10 miles away, if ATC didn't already, they will clear you faster (at Heathrow it is common to hear "no speed" on the climb out, especially if a particular aircraft is going long-distance and is therefore heavy).

 

ATC *DO* expect certain aircraft to need to fly above 250 kts for optimum flight - the 747 and MD-11 in particular. Later/better designed aircraft can handle 250 kts clean efficiently, and without crazy deck angles just to fly level. You only need to look at the wings of the 777 and A380 to see they are optimized for slow flight as well as high speed flight. It is why they have larger root sections that the "older", faster birds.

 

The 787 is optimized again, employing a higher aspect ratio wing for its size, and thus creates a lot of lift, akin to a glider, even at slow speeds.

 

The 747 is just heavy (the 747-8i is the heaviest in the skies IIRC with a MTOM of 1,000,000 lbs), whilst the MD-11 has small wings and so needs to fly faster for a given configuration.

 

So in summary, whilst 250 kts below 10000 ft is the general rule, it is not so inflexible as to not permit faster for certain aircraft if requested. It doesn't just apply to takeoff scenario, either. Anyone who knows anyone IRL who flies these aircraft daily as a pilot will know that you can come in hot on final, assuming conditions permit and you've got the space to decelerate. :wink: In fact, some aircraft are very good at decelerating, so ATC will exploit this for sequencing.

 

I think people need to stop being so pedantic and just fly. If on VATSIM for example, just request faster if needed - the worst is they refuse. SPEED INTERVENTION exists for a reason. :wink:

 

Don't be a slave to the "box" - think, and be intelligent.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

 

PS: My sources are RW pilots who have been doing this for decades in the real-world, in all types of aircraft, and both long and short-haul.

 

PPS: Another controversial sim-topic is flying instrument approaches in full - rarely happens IRL. :wink: ATC will always give shortcuts/direct where able.