Geoff,

 

I do apologize if you feel your experience has been less than satisfactory with us. Having a look at our actual support and PM history on another forum, I do see I personally have tried to be as attentive to your support concerns as necessary over the years.

 

I have just pulled up a log of details for which updates and e-mails are sent out. Since March 9, 2010, you have received 54 e-mails from us, including e-mails with updates to products you have purchased. Many of these e-mails have read receipts indicating you did indeed open said e-mails. As recent as this month you have received update e-mails from our end. I am not calling you a liar, though I also want it to be clear that you are indeed being sent update e-mails as they come out. We have always done this, and punctually so.

 

I don't care to go back in time and see what stir we have had on these forums. I feel there is an automatic prejudice towards us from your side and that your mind may already be set. For that I cannot do much other than continue to provide you the customer service you deserve as a customer should you wish to seek it out. This includes us sending you the many update e-mails for products you have purchased, just as we have done over the years. I believe that the reputation we have for good customer service speaks for itself.

 

If you feel you have been neglected in any manner I do apologize. We'll be happy to help you any time, any day. We have support channels available to you for this very purpose.

 

 

Best regards,

Cameron

Cameron-I am addressing a culture which recently in another nearby thread here you had to jump in on ...I have no complaints at all about your company -it has been very responsive. The "over and out comment" outside the company does linger though and goes along with a culture that showed itself in the thread I speak of, shows itself quite frequently, and I consider a negative influence for flight simming.

 

We were told by Xplane fans and developers on this board that xplane10 would be a new animal. That the continual cycle of things being broken was a thing of the past, the reluctance of third party developers passing on development of the sim because of this was a thing of the past-and yet many of us find ourselves in exactly the same cycle again-a year later.

 

No-I don't put the blame on 3rd party developers. In the case of mt Carenado products I bought full well with knowledge of the disclaimer that they were not yet fully Xplane 10 compatible but a patch would be issued as soon as there was a "stable"version. For a year, I have watched each beta " break" something-finally the "stable" version is here ( though it gives me out of memory errors within a minute-something none of the previous betas did)-but now we are moving to 64 bit which not only breaks my aircraft but all the plugins. The manufacturers are I assume waiting, because while "stable" -it really isn't -and Xplane is still a moving target...understandable but perhaps not the best for the consumer.A year is a long time to wait-and I frankly won't be surprised if like other versions of Xplane, there will be a new Xplane before I see unbroken.

 

So my complaint is not with your company which has given me excellent support, or with Tom who I personally contacted when Xplane 10 came out to ask about the mu2 and told me to wait for a patch that would be compatible with Xplane 10- but with the fact that with each incarnation of Xplane I have purchased-and try to support it by making 3rd party purchases(this version by far the most in my case based on promises fore mentioned)and then find for the majority of time I own the sim my purchases are broken, and I may wait the entire product life and never experience a fully working add in.

 

The fault ultimately rests with me-every version of Xplane has been like this. I feel very foolish that I bought into the hype that this version would be different.

 

Perhaps Xplane should be billed as " Xplane experimenter". I do enjoy that it is constantly evolving, and if billed that way I certainly would not be disappointed. I also would not invest in it outside the core sim. At this point I just am not going to make any more 3rd party purchases. Being on a fixed income now I just can't afford to chalk these continual non working items as monetary contributions to the hobby as I used to.

 

...and yes....since Xplane is a continual moving target and I have much more vested interest now than Ever in having the most realistic sim possible, and since supposedly the developers listen, I will continue to harp on its weaknesses, areas of unreality including its vaulted fm's, despite this usually making the xplane's old core rally around the mantra of FSX Xplane hater (despite the fact I hardly ever use fsx anymore)...and yes-I will compare to a 6 year old dead sim where it is clearly superior because I believe it is bad business to not notice and keep up with the conpetition- even a dead one.

 

...and like an alcoholic who doesn't get better till he admits he has a problem, I don't think Xplane will either until it's weaknesses are openly discussed -which seems difficult to do around here.

Well said Geof....

Hi, Geof,

 

Thanks for the clarification and for sharing your opinion. I'm definitely not looking to persuade you to see X-Plane in a different light when a seasoned flight simmer like yourself is able to call it as you see it. Ultimately, I'm sure you'll go to whatever sim gives you the most enjoyment. In the end that is all that matters. :smile:

 

I primarily wanted to come in here and re-affirm X-Aviation's commitment to its customers, including you. I am pleased to hear that you feel our service has been satisfactory.

 

 

Best regards,

Cameron

Ultimately, I'm sure you'll go to whatever sim gives you the most enjoyment. In the end that is all that matters.

 

Sims, sims, sims :biggrin:

 

P.S. -- My Falco & Corvallis password from last December is not working. Do I just ask for another one. I looked up last year's email, which has the password request.

 

L.Adamson

Thanks Cameron.

 

I am not sure where the impression is that I dislike or don't use Xplane-I have posted plenty of posts praising many aspects of it, and now the 64 bit version has quite a bit of interest on my part. Fsx has been collecting dust mostly for two years here.

 

However, I can not see how mentioning the aspects of xplane that are not so great and need improvement are ever gonna get attention if anyone pointing them out is bullied or typecast as a basher for doing so, or a reported problem is dismissed as if it doesn't exist-that part I dislike for sure. I've also found if problems/feature sets are debated in the forums enough-usually a developer takes notice...at least that has been the case with most of the other sims. It has been responsible for many improvements simmers take for granted today.

 

For me xplane is so close...but seems to always come up short for the majority. I'd like to see that change and in my opinion there are just a few things that need some fixing to do that (see the thread about cities, landclass). It is exactly that type of debate and proof such as screenshots, and yes compares with other sim feature sets that imho cause things to happen-again at least with past sims.

 

You are right-I've been around a long time-same with Larry. I think all who are not familiar should take a lesson in Pro Pilot and Fly..their history, their following, and what happened...and we could all take a lesson from Richard Harvey.

 

HIstory tends to repeat itself...

 

best,

 

Geof

Geof, people are going to defend what they enjoy or like when it seems there is a constant barrage of criticisms being thrown around. You have to expect that.

That's why I don't go to the FSX forums or the Aerofly forums and start pointing out their faults.

I don't want to ruin the experience for them.

They all know what's lacking for them, just like the x-plane community knows what's lacking for x-plane.

That's why it baffles me when people want to help improve X-Plane, they don't go to the x-plane website.

The chances of something getting improved or added by posting about it here is minimal to none.

Sims, sims, sims :biggrin:

 

That works too. :smile:

 

P.S. -- My Falco & Corvallis password from last December is not working. Do I just ask for another one. I looked up last year's email, which has the password request.

 

You can reset this in your account if you still know your password, or you can have the system reset to a password for you by going here: https://www.x-aviation.com/catalog/password_forgotten.php

 

Please contact us straight away if this isn't resolved promptly: http://www.x-aviatio.../contact_us.php

 

 

 

I am not sure where the impression is that I dislike or don't use Xplane-I have posted plenty of posts praising many aspects of it, and now the 64 bit version has quite a bit of interest on my part. Fsx has been collecting dust mostly for two years here.

 

I tend to have more of an open mind about this type of stuff these days. For the most part, I find it akin to the Mac vs PC arguments. Most Mac users are extremely passionate about their platform of choice. Anyone who dare step on that passion will quickly be sentenced. :wink:

 

I am a Mac user, I love the platform, I dislike Windows on a personal preference level, but I also know that Mac is not perfect in every way. Not many people do use multiple sims unlike yourself and Larry. I think when a user chooses his/her platform and begins investing their hard earned dollars into that particular platform by way of add-ons then they are more prone to "defend their turf." Of course, this analogy does not necessarily apply to you as a multi-sim user, but it is certainly applicable to most. Mac vs PC, iPhone vs Android, X-Plane vs MSFS. It's just the way it is, primarily driven by passion. It can often come across as off-putting, but I know deep down the intentions are good.

 

You are right-I've been around a long time-same with Larry. I think all who are not familiar should take a lesson in Pro Pilot and Fly..their history, their following, and what happened...and we could all take a lesson from Richard Harvey.

 

I really, really enjoyed FLY! when it was released. Richard was a class act and someone I hold in high regard even if in spirit to this day. I know few people who could be as calm and collective as he in a time of apparent tragedy to the outside world. If only he had some more time to take Terminal Reality forward and polish up version 2 of the sim...I'm sure it would have ultimately ended up fantastic and not so "rushed."

Geof, people are going to defend what they enjoy or like when it seems there is a constant barrage of criticisms being thrown around. You have to expect that.

That's why I don't go to the FSX forums or the Aerofly forums and start pointing out their faults.

I don't want to ruin the experience for them.

They all know what's lacking for them, just like the x-plane community knows what's lacking for x-plane.

That's why it baffles me when people want to help improve X-Plane, they don't go to the x-plane website.

The chances of something getting improved or added by posting about it here is minimal to none.

 

I think we all know what my critisiams are. It's certainly not X-Plane as a whole. I may criticize a few items such as the default RV's, but that's not the point. What really gets me riled.................is when it's insinuated that X-Plane is a "flying" simulation, while MSFS is just more of a "scenery viewer". And then there is ton's of remarks on the net..........telling the world why "real pilots" will prefer X-Plane because it's miles ahead of MSFS addons in regards to flight dynamics. Of course, I happen to know that the majority of real pilots don't even use desktop sims. It's not that they don't like them, it's just that they never really tried them. But in the meantime..........FSX also has some fantastic flight models that are available. And these are also recommended by real pilots.

 

It would me meaningless to go to an FSX forum, and point out deficiencies. What would you tell them? That desktop simulation isn't real flight afterall. And that if they mess-up, there won't be too much of a problem? I know some are so convinced, that if they aren't using X-Plane.........then they shouldn't think they're seriously flight simming at all. We all know those sayings: FSX is a game, while X-Plane is a true flight simulator. But then people such as me, know different, and will let them know. Even if it's on an X-Plane forum.

 

As I mentioned earlier today, and on another forum a while back..........when someone ask's why X-Plane drifts to the left, while they didn't have the problem with FSX...........I wouldn't tell them that they're using a "real" simulator now, which is again an attempt to label FSX as a game. Yet, that's the answer he got on an X-Plane forum. I had to get in there, and tell them the facts. The fact that FSX has the auto-rudder option for those who don't use rudder pedals or twist sticks. And the fact that single engine prop planes also drift left in FSX, when this option isn't checked. There are plenty of other questions, and usually with the same type of answers.

 

If some are convinced that "blade element" theory is far superior to "look up tables", then their mind is made up. You'll also see this written time after time across the Internet. But if you come to an FSX forum..................I doubt they'll get a "ruined" experience, if you say so. There will always be those like me, who will assure them that look up tables can also do a wonderful job of simulating flight characteristics. Do note, I'm not criticising X-Plane, only telling those who use FSX look up table aircraft............to not suddenly feel as though there only using a "game" at best. That's what I do, and that's what I've done for many years. I wish X-Plane well. I know that I will be using it more in the future, than at the present. And if FSX addon's stick around for a few years, I'll still be using that sim too. Besides, that new, New Zealand (for XP-10) scenery looks pretty good. I like the mountains!

 

L.Adamson

 

I really, really enjoyed FLY! when it was released. Richard was a class act and someone I hold in high regard even if in spirit to this day. I know few people who could be as calm and collective as he in a time of apparent tragedy to the outside world. If only he had some more time to take Terminal Reality forward and polish up version 2 of the sim...I'm sure it would have ultimately ended up polished and not so "rushed."

 

I could even get on Richard's nerves once and a while. But we got along rather well, most of the time. Of course, he mentions that cool dude (me), in his farewell address. B) I miss him, though. He had great ideas, and imagination, as well as a love for flight.

Do you mean FSX has a better flight model ? But I have read XP has a better flight model.

 

Why do I feel like someone just placed a land mine in this thread? :lol:

 

I think the simplest way to frame this discussion is to note that there is a difference between what a simulator is capable of and how a particular aircraft model takes advantage of those capabilities.

I think all who are not familiar should take a lesson in Pro Pilot and Fly..their history, their following, and what happened...and we could all take a lesson from Richard Harvey.

 

oh yes. +1

That's comparing apples to oranges. Pro Pilot and Fly were two, small start-ups trying to compete with the Microsoft juggernaut, and neither franchise made it beyond a couple of releases. X-Plane, on the other hand, is a well-established brand that has been around for decades and will likely be around for decades more (assuming Austin doesn't suddenly get bored with it).

FLY could have made it if tragedy stayed away.

 

I only looked at x-plane version 8 after years with FLY. Those days, x-plane wasn't able to compete. And FLY had features that are not in x-plane even today (e.g. a moving map … h.e.l.l.o?). Aaaaannnnnnd FLY was better than FS

I disagree mountain.Pro pilot was the first " serious" sim to introduce real 3d terrain, realistic rw avionics, specific aircraft, ATC, and clouds that didn't look like ice cubes, and they were competing with Microsoft exactly the way Xplane has from the beginning of Xplane 1-offering a more "serious" sim to a smaller market-yet hoping to compete by winning over on "serious".Despite the fact that Pro Pilot was leagues above msfs at the time, like Xplane it was only able to draw a small loyal following. How can this be despite the fact it was leagues ahead? Main reason is it didn't have an immediate "wow" factor. At a time when games were first moving to 3d cards it was 2d- most msfs'ers looked at it for 10 minutes and dismissed it as behind the times. I know I almost did, till I dug a little deeper. It was also plagued with bugs-with continual patches coming out that usually broke something else-trying the patience of even the loyal....and finally because it could not make the big time the plug was pulled. Sounds strangely familiar except so far the pulling of the plug. The responses of ms users on exploring Pro Pilot at that time could be however the word for word response of those that try Xplane today. I hated that then, and I hate the déjà vu now-but that is the way it works.

 

As I mentioned in another thread-an inclusion of a few aerosoft cities x in Xplane would give the immediate wow factor to Xplane a lot of people need to entice them to dig deeper. Since they translate so well, if I were the CEO I'd not be wasting a second making this happen in one way or another-after all a larger user base means more revenue, more add one's and all the good things that come from that.

it sure would be nice to instead of hearing the usual reaction to Xplane and it's immediate scenery comments like " oh my god-I just cranked up Xplane-flew over New York with 1000 rw recognizable buildings and amount of autogen that would grind FSX to a slide slow instead with silky smooth response and not a stutter-Xplane is amazing" .....in my opinion it could be that simple to convert instead of turn away....and turn a tide of interest instead of repugnance-to the eventual good of all simmers.

 

Fly ran a rather similar course and as a beta tester for it I really felt they blew it with FlyII by releasing an unfinished project not only too soon in what was really a beta stage(ahem), turning off both the new and the loyal....and quite differently from Fly 1- it lacked significant wow factor.

 

 

Interestingly during this time of the mid 90's I started a web page of compare shots of rw shots, pro pilot, and FS. Pro pilot always won. I was very surprised when I got a pm from one of the MS programmers stating he really enjoyed my shots! At the time also when duats was a new thing, I and others constantly postulated that it must be possible to get metars off the Internet, interpolate them, and put them in a sim.

 

I am not going to take credit but I think all of us were blown away when fs2000 came out it not only had a new 3d terrain system we take for granted right now based on pro pilot,but improved on it. It also had the first rw weather downloads and beautiful 3d clouds, and ATC-all done better than pro pilot had done. It seems the ms programmers were not only examining the feature sets of the competition but also picking up ideas from the forums and figuring out a way to do all of them better. This is an extremely smart way to do any kind of business-the winning ones usually do. The very reason they put a Lowes and Home Depot right next to each other-they can keep an eye on and match or beat the competition.

 

I think there is much to compare and learn from here. A sim needs an immediate demonstratable wow factor to pull the greatest number of users in, and a savy company not only follows the competition, but if The competition has better ideas they are copied, and improved. A culture where the competition is ignored, the company is largely unaware of the competitors feature sets, and if these this is pointed out is ignored, and prefers to keep itself surrounded by yes men who only report all is good-.well just not the best scenerio.

 

ms used to be-left the innovation to others, but then copied and made better. They don't seem to be handling that too well anymore though and we know where Microsoft is going, apparently followed next by Apple who is losing the innovation to others, possibly by arrogantly believing they alone possess the only innovation skills while Google surpasses them. Saw the same thing happen in the aviation world when Bendix King got smug-and a little company called Garmin took it all away.

 

Lots to be learned from history-by those who at least want to put its lessons to use for advantouge.

finally because it could not make the big time the plug was pulled. Sounds strangely familiar except so far the pulling of the plug.

 

The reason for that is simple: Laminar Research is an entirely independent operation and not dependent in anyway on a publisher unlike Pro Pilot (Sierra) and Fly! (Terminal Reality), so there's nobody other than Austin Meyer who can pull the plug on it. I get the sense that X-Plane is really more of a pet project for Meyer, that he develops it for his own purposes and with his own ends in mind, and it just so happens that enough people like it that he's able to turn a profit, and that's good enough for him. He also maintains some very lucrative contracts with commercial aircraft developers -- people who care more about accurate physics modeling than whether or not their hometown is perfectly recreated -- which was not an advantage that Pro Pilot or Fly! enjoyed.

 

Frankly, I don't think there's any place for these doom and gloom predictions concerning X-Plane. I agree with you in general that there is more that could be done to make the simulator more appealing to the masses, but there's no sense in pretending like X-Plane is on the verge of failure if these things aren't immediately implemented.