Looking to the future of FS9

[kiwiflyer45 123]

Hi Guys

I have a question and if the answer seems to be yes, I am willing to volunteer the time to see if we can make it happen. First let me state the problem and then I'll ask the question.

 

With the April closing of WoAI and the slow but steady reduction of new FS9 products, (payware and freeware) as most people move on to other sims (or other hobbies) it's inevitable that the FS9 community will continue to decline. It has outlived even the wildest expectations we might have had and will continue to so for several years at least. (Is it ten years since release?) But we all know that it is still slowly declining as fewer new contributions are coming out.

 

But there continue to be many of us who still enjoy FS9, not only for it's many good inherent qualities, but also because it's not static. With new addons and tweaks it has an amazing ability to become "new." With declining contributions from some of the "greats: like WofAI, we will eventually lose that constant flow of contributions that have kept it "growing" and "renewing."

 

The question I have is this. As developers move on to other things, is it fixed in stone that once they leave the sim or the hobby, there is no way of users continuing to improve their contributions and posting them on AVSIM for the enjoyment of the community? If people who are have given us their contributions over the years gave permission, shouldn't it be possible for those of us who want to, to modify those files so they are continuing to be improved and can add that element of "newness" to the sim for a few more years.

 

For example, WofAI traffic... If the original modellers AND the WofAI folks gave permission to do so, why couldn't we keep updating them with new paints, new additions to their fleets, new flight schedules etc? Of course, the reality is that many of us will probably be doing that anyway for our own use... As long as permission has been given, couldn't we then upload them to AVSIM so the whole community can benefit?

 

I can't imagine why someone who has provided freeware or in some cases even old payware, would want their work to cease being used because they have moved on to other things...

 

If there's a positive response to my suggestion, then I'd be willing to put something together that would reassure AVSIM and the individuals doing the uploading that what they were doing is legal and ethical.

 

What say you my friends?

 

Cheers

Ian

ps. Please don't hijack this thread into one of those interminable fights about intellectual property, "piracy" and so on... I am not proposing doing anything that will not first be clearly and explicitly permitted by the authors.... IF they say yes, and IF AVSIM says yes, then why not do it? If they say no, then it won't happen. End of discussion. There are plenty of other forum threads to go if you want to blow off steam about the legality and ethics of it all...

[SpiritFlyer 987]

I can't imagine why someone who has provided freeware or in some cases even old payware, would want their work to cease being used because they have moved on to other things...

 

If there's a positive response to my suggestion, then I'd be willing to put something together that would reassure AVSIM and the individuals doing the uploading that what they were doing is legal and ethical.

 

I don't know the answer to this or have the authority to make a decision, but I like it a lot and will kick it upstairs for Tom to make a decision on.

[Cyanide72 24]

It'll be hard to believe, but I was just over on the Aerosoft board and saw their announcement of a new Adelaide scenery. I was quite surprised and at first happy at the thought of having an airport for Australia, but to my utter disappointment, the very first line of Mr. Mathijs Kok's post said the following:

 

As most of the time, do not ask for a FS2004 version as it just makes no commercial sense for us...

 

It's becoming quite frustrating that most developers (payware and freeware) are neglecting FS9. Yeah I can understand money talks, but by shutting out the FS9 users, we're pretty much being told to upgrade to a far inferior simulator. Not to start another X vs 9 war, but frankly speaking FS9 is far more superior for me. I can have full peace of mind that my simulator will not CTD or OOM after a 12~15 hour long haul flight.

 

But, I digress. I wholeheartedly agree with your post. While I do not use the WOAI files, I can understand the difficulty in letting go. It wasn't too long ago when POSKY closed their doors and I was extremely saddened, but thanks to the wonderful work of someone among us, the POSKY Archive still contains every single file they ever released along with the Avsim library. I don't know if this will happen to WOAI, but I did recently read a post by one of the members of WOAI who said they will be keeping at least some of the files up in the Avsim library.

 

My apologies for going off track again, but one issue with the WOAI files that has always bugged me is the inability to install every single package they release in one go. I don't speak for others, but I myself as a heavy iron flyer like seeing different airliners from around the world populating my airports. Had WOAI included every single package in their installer, it would be far, far easier for everyone. It could also have been selective like having the ability to install entire packages for so and so part of the world. Let's say you primarily fly around Europe, so the WOAI installer would install every file for Europe and be done with it. That way if you fired up a flight anywhere in Europe, your skies would be full of European traffic. I realize there may be an issue with the sheer size of the files, but let's be honest, you can find massive capacity drives these days for quite reasonable prices.

 

No doubt despite everything that us FS9 loyalists can and will do, there will come a day when our beloved sim will "die" because of neglect from developers. Not much anyone can do anything about it, but here's to hoping that some developers will continue to keep us in mind.

 

PS: FS9 will celebrate it's 10th anniversary on the 29th of July, 2013.

[A320driver 19]

Ian,

This sounds great to me. Though I am disappointed that there is less and less being devloped for FS9, I understand that is just the way it is. That said, I am going to stand pat and continue to tweak my FS9 installation and enjoy the smooth performance I now get in all circumstances I fly in. I would be very willing to get involved in any way I could to give something back to the FS9 community. Thanks for this train of thought Ian, all the best!

[HaraldG 559]

Hi folks,

hi Ian,

 

the problem we face is quite strange:

There is a Simulator, which is almost ten years old (July 2003), and there's another one, which is almost seven years old. Spoken in terms of our contemporary times, both sims are real ancients. So the impression, that developers move away from the old FS2004 to the new FSX (as some visitors from the FSX sphere want to teach us FS2004ers from time to time) is a kind of misleading... But anyway... it is a fact that some commercial developers move away from FS2004. I will be glad if I can get a 2013f edition of German Airports for my FS2004...

 

But if I understand you correctly you have mainly freeware in your focus. In the particular case of WoAI, as I understood, their packages were made from existing repaints, AI plane models and flight planes. As long as for instance an AI plane is allowed to repaint, why shouldn't we do? (That means, why shouldn't people with more abilities than me do...) I can't see AIA or DJC, as the major models WoAI has made packages with, having their paint kits "revoked". We can add new liveries, make new flight plans from scratch/from an airlines web site; the only thing we won't see in this case is an entire new model.

If your idea is indeed to develop not only new repaints, but further versions of certain models which seem to be anbandoned by their developers, I can only second you.

 

At the other site, look at United Traffic Team

http://unitedtrafficteam.com/

or SBAI

http://sbai.kiev.ua/

- we regularly see wonderful now AI models for FS2004, or even for FS2004 exclusively. Or look at avsimrus.com - in my impression the majority of the files which are uploaded there are still for FS2004. Maybe the big developers move away from FS2004 - they make place for startups from eastern Europe or China who fill the gap with payware or even freeware. Maybe initially they will not have the high quality standards of major commercial developers, but we can develop FS2004 still a long time. And if you look at some of the freeware sceneries hosted at avsimrus.com - they often have the standard of payware sceneries or are even better, if I think of UNNT, UGTB, UDYZ, UKBB, URKK and many more.

 

So I think the fate of WoAI is not related to FS2004s destiny.

 

Best wishes to you, Ian, and to all the FS004 fellow simmers.

 

Harald

[flex42 1]

<br />For example, WofAI traffic... If the original modellers AND the WofAI folks gave permission to do so, why couldn't we keep updating them with new paints, new additions to their fleets, new flight schedules etc? Of course, the reality is that many of us will probably be doing that anyway for our own use... As long as permission has been given, couldn't we then upload them to AVSIM so the whole community can benefit?<br />

 

I think I have some good news, and some bad news.

 

The good news is that WOAI is a compilation of the necessary components to create AI in flight sim : Aircraft repaints and flightplans. WOAI uses widely available freeware resources, with their respective creators permission, and packages them in a ready-to-go, easy to use format.

 

There still is a very healthy community of people working on these contents. Look at the at Avsim library, and you will find that a good percentage of the available files are AI repaints and flightplans and these are updated very often. If you wish so, you can create your own AI package yourself, for your own sim use. The tools are all there.

 

I confess I am "AI addict", I started with some WOAI packages some years ago, but moved on to creating my own custom AI on my FS9 setup, using the resources that are made available by these great freeware developers. Right now I have 1679 AI files (airliner, military, GA...) on my scenery folder. My AI setup is kept as updated as possible, and spreads itself over 20GB in my HD. It's a constant work-in-progress. Right now, I have in the waiting line over 200 airlines (some quite small and exotic) waiting for a moment of my attention in order to be updated on my current sim setup.

 

I recommend you visit the Alpha India Group website. It's the largest and greatest community dedicated to AI setup in flightsim. It's also home of AIFP, a very powerful tool that enables you to create "your own WOAI" packages in your sim.

 

The bad news is that this activity is highly addictive. Beware that sometimes you will not fly in order to update one of your favorite airlines. And yes, forget about moving to FSX, AI is one of the things that FSX doesn't like very much and makes you pay with valuable frames per second.

[kiwiflyer45 123]

Thanks everybody. I only used WoAI as an example. There are lots of other freeware packages - scenery - AI aircraft - flyable aircraft - whose authors are no longer active in FS9 or in the hobby so what I had in mind was a pretty broad range of possibilities. There are also companies who have issued former payware as freeware and perhaps others might be persuaded to do so if those products are no longer being marketed.

 

What I have in mind is that if a member of the community has the skills and tools to modify/improve any of these products, that they would be able to upload what they've done to AVSIM without it being a legal or ethical issue.

 

Here's a different example. About two years ago somebody figured out a way to get rid of those horrible triangle landing lights for AI aircraft that so often spoil the realism of landing in fog or reduced visibility. He shared the technique with us and a number of us carried out the necessary modifications - the result was wonderful. But we didn't have permission to share our work and so each person invested hours and hours of work doing the same thing to the same models. All we were doing was improve an already excellent freeware model to get rid of a limitation due to FS9 and which the original author probably didn't know how to fix - the solution had been found long after they were released. But instead of being able to share the modified files so everyone could use them, we each did it individually for our own use because we didn't want to do the wrong thing by uploading them. But the fact is that the authors of most of the files I did modifications on haven't been active in the FS9 community for many years and would probably have gladly given permission because they long ago lost interest in those models and have moved on to other things.

 

Well, let's see what Tom has to say and if he gives the green light, I'll see what I can do to implement it.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

The question I have is this. As developers move on to other things, is it fixed in stone that once they leave the sim or the hobby, there is no way of users continuing to improve their contributions and posting them on AVSIM for the enjoyment of the community? If people who are have given us their contributions over the years gave permission, shouldn't it be possible for those of us who want to, to modify those files so they are continuing to be improved and can add that element of "newness" to the sim for a few more years.

 

Ian and all... AVSIM's position is very simple. We're here for the community, including the community of authors, commercial providers and contributors. If an author, originator, the copyright holder, agrees and approves of it, there is no reason why AVSIM would deny that work to the community. In fact, we would support this effort 110%. But, a cautionary note; if any work placed on AVSIM was contested, we would immediately remove access to it until the conflict was resolved. With that one caveat, I encourage you to move forward, with AVSIM's full support.

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Ian and all... AVSIM's position is very simple. We're here for the community, including the community of authors, commercial providers and contributors. If an author, originator, the copyright holder, agrees and approves of it, there is no reason why AVSIM would deny that work to the community. In fact, we would support this effort 110%. But, a cautionary note; if any work placed on AVSIM was contested, we would immediately remove access to it until the conflict was resolved. With that one caveat, I encourage you to move forward, with AVSIM's full support.

 

 

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is another example of why AVSIM is the world wide institutional leader in presenting, preserving and promoting recreational flight simulation to the next generation.

 

Kind regards,

[Spartan0536 49]

I used to fly in FS9, FS9 was/is great and is probably the most successful flight simulator of all time. FS9 is actually what got me back into flight simming after my break from FS95, and I flew for Delta Virtual for some time before I moved on. I know this is going to sound weird but when MS Flight came out I was forced to use a VC only and before MS Flight I was a 2D Panel only guy, and let me say FS9 with extremely high quality 2D panels looks freaking amazing still. MS Flight with its beautiful VC renders (for the few planes that had them) made me switch to FSX, as I saw the future to be primarily VC with 2D panels for quick resource (not everyone has Track IR). FSX's engine can also be pushed much farther than FS9's which is also part of the reason why developers are making the switch as well as many people. If P3D works out like people hope it will be the end of FSX with a rapid transition to P3D. The legacy that is FS9 will continue actively for a few more years to come but what it leaves behind is nothing short of ground & record breaking.

[Appliance 51]

Well I for one will be flying FS9 until my dying day.

 

I fly too many payware aircraft, worldwide, to mostly payware airports in real time using real weather and current navdata. When development ultimately stops ... I don't ... nor does the sim. Suspended animation maybe, however I can keep on simming into perpetuity.

 

Simming ISN'T real life. We do it based on our IMAGINATION and suspension of disbelief aided by Yokes/Throttlles/Joysticks/TrackIR/TripleHead2Go/Voice Command/special build cockpits etc.etc. That doesn't change with time. If we enjoy it now we can enjoy it in the future ... so long as the technology allows us (try to find a Sony Betamax player recently?)

 

I am presently contemplating the purchase of a manual of Garmins GNS530 (NOT the GNS530W) since I own the excellent RXP version. I presently use about 40%-50% of its potential ... for $35 I can unlock rather more IF I need to. Recently returned to the AirSimmer airbus. Downloaded info from SmartCockpit but I happen to prefer the $50 spent on the Unofficial Guide by Captain Mike Ray. These educative tomes are product specific NOT sim specific.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, when its all boiled down to it, WE can please OURSELVES. It matters not a jolt what others think, say or do or provide. As long as we are happy ...

 

Long live FS9. Long live Avsim and other similar bodies. Long live other simming platforms. Long live the community ... our backbone and our friends. No matter what eventuates we are all drawn together by the pleasure of (controlled?) flight simulation - a bond that sets us apart from mere mortals.

 

Go forth and multiply, er, enjoy. Whatever turns you on.

[sauviat 137]

Hello Ian!

 

Like you and many others, I find time to use FS9 several times a week unless I am travelling.

 

It is ironic that FS9 is of an age which is not much older than FSX, except that is has a different 'engine'. There are elements of FS9 which are just not possible with FSX and, of course, vice versa. However, what is important is that FS9 has never failed us. What has been developed for FS9 (freeware and payware) should be allowed to continue even if it has to use its current engine.

 

Whether a vintage car, plane, train or something that came out of the industrial revolution, it can be kept going with tender loving care and funding. We have aircraft museums filled with aircraft, many of them still in flying condition as if they are back in their own era. So what is different with FS9?

 

Enthusiastes' generally keep the past going, which allows others to continue to support the past - commonly known as heritage!

 

The "FS9 Heritage Trust" has a nice ring to it, which would be the umbrella to which we can undertake all that is necessary to keep FS9 in the skies for decades to come. Thus allowing young and not so young to continue with their passion and support for FS9.

 

With the age old addage that anything is possible and never say never, what Ian has touched upon is just the tip of something that can be magnified. I would look to provide the right support, if it were possible to set up a small team to look at all the issues involved and the approaches to be made.

 

Tom's comments are noted, because the facility to have the products of others' placed available for the benefit of all is what will keep FS9 alive.

 

Ian, drop me a PM and I will pick it up. This is possible and do NOT worry about implications of copyrights, trade marks etc as those that legitimately are the owners of the software will be made contact with as and when necessary.

 

Regards,

 

Sauviat

[PittsS2B 33]

Well, Herr Kok of Aerosoft has been announcing his intent to move away from FS9 for several years now, so that's nothing new. Aerosoft has still released many FS9 versions of airports in the meantime, despite these proclamations. And frankly, I already have so many places to fly in the FS9 virtual world that I can't find time to visit them all anyway. I applaud Ian's suggestion to approach the authors of older AI models to request further work be allowed, as FS9 is a vast canvas with many more corners yet to be filled in, or retouched.

 

I would also point out the example of Falcon 4.0, which is soldiering on 14 years after release with a completely new graphics engine due to the efforts of dedicated community members, and Battle of Britain II, and so on.

[Gavin 99]

 

 

 

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is another example of why AVSIM is the world wide institutional leader in presenting, preserving and promoting recreational flight simulation to the next generation.

 

Kind regards,

 

Exactly. Hence my sig. :-)

[momtchil 32]

Ian and all... AVSIM's position is very simple. We're here for the community, including the community of authors, commercial providers and contributors. If an author, originator, the copyright holder, agrees and approves of it, there is no reason why AVSIM would deny that work to the community. In fact, we would support this effort 110%. But, a cautionary note; if any work placed on AVSIM was contested, we would immediately remove access to it until the conflict was resolved. With that one caveat, I encourage you to move forward, with AVSIM's full support.

Yup - folks, that's pretty much how we operate in the Library. Always have.