Slightly back on topic... Anyone here have some info on Qantas? They have had to perform full auto lands in fog using a CATI ILS due to not being able to divert when returning to home bases (longhaul aircraft)

 

Just curious as to how they are able to get away with it? It seems they have done it four times now and they don't carry alternate fuel for long hauls. Surely Australia can afford to stick at least one CATII or higher installation at each of there main hubs?

 

Cheers

Slightly back on topic... Anyone here have some info on Qantas? They have had to perform full auto lands in fog using a CATI ILS due to not being able to divert when returning to home bases (longhaul aircraft)

 

Just curious as to how they are able to get away with it? It seems they have done it four times now and they don't carry alternate fuel for long hauls. Surely Australia can afford to stick at least one CATII or higher installation at each of there main hubs?

 

Cheers

 

I think they get away with it because it is an emergency situation. I believe Australian regs allow for no alternate to be carried if the weather forecast looks good. Which is scary because weather is not the only reason an aircraft can't land at an airport.

 

Most if not all Australian airports are privatized and with the government not providing any funding the airport operators probably feel they wont achieve an acceptable Return on Investment to have the capability's. The one airport in the country that should have CATIII capability is Perth due to the remoteness of the city. 

The one airport in the country that should have CATIII capability is Perth due to the remoteness of the city.

Yeah-totally agree on that one.

 

Just two weeks ago we had some nice thick fog that reduced the touchdown point RVR to < 250m (IIRC)at one point. Resulted in EK 424 diverting to Adelaide and a Jetstar flight to Kalgoorlie. I heard a Virgin aircraft on the scanner indicating they would be going all the way back to YMML if they couldn't get down, but luckily they were able to land.

Scary thought considering they operate A380's into these airports. But who am I to judge them.

It's some 1,100 miles from Perth to the divert at Adelaide (if I'm out a bit it's my mental arithmetic from Skyvector failing me). Not many places in the world where you're faced with that. It's not the US or Europe where you pass an ILS every 15 minutes (gross generalisation, but you get the idea). Distances are vast and major population centres few. Even the Adelaide to Mildura divert is over 190 miles - just next door by Oz standards.

 

Not trying to justify any poor decisions that might have been made (and that call is up to investigators, not this mere one time weekend hack/sim driver), just provide some perspective on the challenges of operating here.

Perhaps it's worth a look into the requirements for an alternate.  Here in the States, our rule is pretty narrow (the 1-2-3 rule: must file unless, between 1 hour before and 1 hour after the ETA, the ceiling will be >2000 and the visibility >3), but even if you ended up in a situation where you'd need one, there's likely a suitable airport somewhere nearby.  Looking at the Australia low charts, there seems to be a decent number of airports with IAPs, but definitely not as many as you see over here.  I didn't look much further into what types, either.

 

Side note...

Do any of you ever see the American commercials for Outback Steakhouse and roll your eyes because of the accent, and heavy stereotypes?  I remember going to a foreign country and meeting all kinds of people who thought I would've sounded like Homer Simpson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tswvz_cG9LY

who thought I would've sounded like Homer Simpson

 

You mean you don't? 

 

Damnation!

 

Slightly back on topic... Anyone here have some info on Qantas? They have had to perform full auto lands in fog using a CATI ILS due to not being able to divert when returning to home bases (longhaul aircraft)

 

Just curious as to how they are able to get away with it? It seems they have done it four times now and they don't carry alternate fuel for long hauls. Surely Australia can afford to stick at least one CATII or higher installation at each of there main hubs?

 

Cheers

 

Well if the weather is forecasted in the TAF (with a TEMPO or INTER, usually a PROB30 aswell), and that weather is below alternate minima, the dispatcher and/or crew should be really adding 30/60 minutes fuel respectively, or planning for an alternate. There has been some cases where the crew has departed LAX, and halfway through their flight the meteorologist has forecasted a 500m visibility and low cloud. Unfortunately an A380 doesn't have the option of hooking up to a KC30 overhead Honolulu :rolleyes:

 

However, 2 weeks or so ago when Sydney had 3 days of RVR's less than 500m during the peak arrivals (early morning up until around 9am), most flights diverted to either Brisbane, Canberra or Adelaide, so I am not sure what situation and time you are referring to.

 

But in the end, if it was legal for them to land (i.e. the RVR requirements were met), then I see no reason why they would divert and make their company lose money and cause the paying customer trouble.

 

 

You mean you don't?

 

I can pull off a decent Hank Hill, but Homer isn't in my talent.  Haha.

 

 

Side note...

 

Pig's arse, are you fair dinkum?  10 bucks for a u beaut steak.  That'd cost ya at least 30 bucks out in the bush these days.  Strewth, I'm stonkered.  For more good strine see http://www.koalanet.com.au/australian-slang.html

Do any of you ever see the American commercials for Outback Steakhouse and roll your eyes because of the accent, and heavy stereotypes?

Yeah, that add completley forgot that we ride kangaroos everywhere and drink VB all day.

 

:LMAO:

 

 

and cause the paying customer trouble.

 

I would say that declaring an emergency and advising the passengers to assume brace position would be considered 'trouble'.  I for one would probably have had a heart attack.  We can only assume that the local visibility deteriorated after the decision was made to divert to YMIA and there was insufficient fuel for YMML or YSCB at some point during the first approach.  I live in Melbourne and we do get heavy fog during winter although it does tend to quickly dissipate, unlike the UK where I grew up.  In London the fog can last for weeks.

Yeagdaymatehowyagoinoright. Rippa.

 

VB? Pah... XXXX

xxxx  only if your  desperate  and theres nothing  else  to drink :drinks:

I would say that declaring an emergency and advising the passengers to assume brace position would be considered 'trouble'.  I for one would probably have had a heart attack.  We can only assume that the local visibility deteriorated after the decision was made to divert to YMIA and there was insufficient fuel for YMML or YSCB at some point during the first approach.  I live in Melbourne and we do get heavy fog during winter although it does tend to quickly dissipate, unlike the UK where I grew up.  In London the fog can last for weeks.

Tom, with all due respect, I was referring to Rob's post regarding QF jets not carrying fuel for an alternate on long haul flights... Not the Virgin incident. As far as I understood, the situations he mentioned did not involve the crew declaring a emergency, or a pan.