Interesting morning in Victoria today...

 

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/virgin-flight-declares-emergency-after-fog-diversion-20130618-2ofk2.html

 

This strikes me as a strange decision given auto land capability but perhaps those who know more than I do about such things would care to comment.  Meantime I'm off to YMIA.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/Melbourne

 

you have to select it  from the list of  videos  from the bottom

 

 

 

this  a  video of the landing

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/Melbourne

 

you have to select it  from the list of  videos  from the bottom

 

 

 

this  a  video of the landing

 

Wow, but I still don't get why not Melbourne or Adelaide with full ILS.

Think Melbourne was fogged in as well I think not  sure  though

*

given auto land capability

 

The Virgin had to go around twice and was beginning to run low on fuel. Unlike FSX, pilots do not have the option of choosing 'unlimited fuel'. Also declaring an emergency because you are running low on fuel is a good thing. Remember the Avianca 707 crash in New York?

 

I'm not sure about the ILS capabilities that Victoria has. CAT IIIB requires a decision height of 50 feet and a RVR of 146 feet (50 meters). CAT IIIC is not authorized anywhere in the world. If you cannot see the ground, approach lighting or runway at the decision height on an CA II/IIIA/IIIB, you go around. You don't land.

This strikes me as a strange decision given auto land capability but perhaps those who know more than I do about such things would care to comment. 

 

It is not only the aircraft in question that needs to be CAT II or CAT III capable - the crew also need to be & more importantly in this example the ground based navigation aids also need to be certified & maintained to this standard.

 

So this morning it would not have made any difference if the aircraft was CAT III equipped (FAIL OP with an RVR of 75m)

 

ADL (YPAD) has only one ILS for RWY23 & this is only certified & maintained to CAT I limits - down to a Decision Altitude of 270ft & an RVR of 800m with all the approach lighting available.

 

This is an economical decision based on the relatively infrequent 'foggy days' in Adelaide...the case for Mildura is similar & as the airport is not equipped with an ILS system & the minima are even higher.

 

Keeping an approach (navaids & lighting) at CAT II or even CAT III standards on a permanent basis for one or two foggy days in every 365 just does not make economical sense.

 

If my memory serves me correctly the only destination on the Australian mainland that has published CAT III procedures is the ILS to RWY 16 at MEL (YMML).

 

It is easy to forget within the FS environment where one could conduct an Autoland onto any ILS.

Virgin don't have approval from CASA for CATIII on the 737.

Not every ILS is rated for a ~zero viz auto landing. Some simmers would be shocked. Minimums on the Adelaide ILS from the March 2012 chart is 250' AGL. I drove under about a one mile final there on my way to work this morning and thought to myself there wouldn't be much moving. Mildura's RNAV mins is just under 500' AGL (660' AMSL).

 

(edit - flurry of activity while I typed and looked stuff up!)

 

Typical media stir up. It will be interesting to see what the ATSB has to say. Can't really judge much from a cellphone clip, especially one not looking down on runway lights from a flight deck.

CAT IIIB requires a decision height of 50 feet and a RVR of 146 feet (50 meters). CAT IIIC is not authorized anywhere in the world. If you cannot see the ground, approach lighting or runway at the decision height on an CA II/IIIA/IIIB, you go around. You don't land.

I think you're confusing CATs there.

CAT II requires a DH, normally around 100' AGL.  CAT III is normally to the ground, altitude-wise, but with varying RVR requirements.  If you're looking at the wikipedia article, what it's trying to say is that the approach category is certified for DHs anywhere between 0-50'.  I have yet to find an airport in the States that doesn't certify the approach to the ground (CAT IIIa/b).

 

 

 

It is not only the aircraft in question that needs to be CAT II or CAT III capable - the crew also need to be & more importantly in this example the ground based navigation aids also need to be certified & maintained to this standard.

 

Bingo.  Thanks for bringing that up.  I'm getting really tired of this idea that ILS = autoland, anywhere, any time.

They still may have done an autoland - certified, trained or no.

And lose their jobs?

And lose their jobs?

If it comes down to a choice between my job or my life (not to mention all of the lives on board), I should hope the choice would be self-evident.

And lose their jobs?

 

 

If it comes down to a choice between my job or my life (not to mention all of the lives on board), I should hope the choice would be self-evident.

 

Ding ding ding. That's where some knowledge if regs and history comes in. If you are in an emergency situation, you may deviate from regs as required to deal with the emergency.

 

That fourth stripe doesn't come with a Ctrl-P.

Minimums on the Adelaide ILS from the March 2012 chart is 250' AGL. I drove under about a one mile final there on my way to work this morning and thought to myself there wouldn't be much moving. Mildura's RNAV mins is just under 500' AGL (660' AMSL).

 

Not trying to be smart or picky but that's a massive 'gotcha' right there...which could lead to one of those famous FS'isms....

 

A CAT I approach Decision Altitude (DA) is (with a very few rare exceptions) measured against the pressure altimeter which must be set to the local QNH - this DA is referenced to height in FEET above mean sea level using the local QNH. 

 

Hence ADL RWY23 CAT 1 approach minima is 270 feet BARO (ADL is 20 ft AMSL)

 

Its also a reason why certain Non Precision Approaches (which utilise tools like VNAV) often have cold or hot weather altimetry limits placed upon them.  Any altitude readings based on the local QNH are subject to changes forced by extremes of air temperature

 

Heights AGL are normally referenced to the Radar Altimeter reading above the actual ground surface....sometimes called HAT or Height Above Touchdown.

 

You don't even need one serviceable radar altimeter in an NG (it has 2) to conduct a CAT I approach or other non-precision approaches.

 

I often wonder how many simmers just set their minima as referenced to the Radar Altimeter?