More attacks against OrbX by NickN over at Flight1

[mmann 72]

Orbx has a history of altering FSX files incorrectly. The earlier versions of the ORBX FTX products switched out the terrain.cfg file rather than adding to it like UTX and FSAddon. This caused water features, large and small, to show as a lightly forested landscape if people didn't switch the Orbx configuration panel correctly.

[bonchie 2,305]

Orbx has a history of altering FSX files incorrectly. The earlier versions of the ORBX FTX products switched out the terrain.cfg file rather than adding to it like UTX and FSAddon. This caused water features, large and small, to show as a lightly forested landscape if people didn't switch the Orbx configuration panel correctly.

 

I remember having that issue years back. Flew into SF and found the bay was a shrub forest.

[Guest]

 

 

As long as FTXG simply replaces default FSX textures it can't do much harm. But as soon as new ORBX landclass comes up, with the intention of splitting a single landclass-to-texture call into a number of calls with a couple of texture variants, waking up dormant landclass types and activating additional texture types to feed those, the situation might aggrevate.

 

Afaik that landclass will come with its own textures in seperate folder, so if you disable that landclass you will also disable those extra tetures. Obviously other landclass addons won't be able to use those textures but that's no problem. It won't get in the way of other addons. But I am also no expert... ^_^

[Christopher Low 5,352]

It won't have to get in the way of other addons. That's the point.

[bonchie 2,305]

Afaik that landclass will come with its own textures in seperate folder, so if you disable that landclass you will also disable those extra tetures. Obviously other landclass addons won't be able to use those textures but that's no problem. It won't get in the way of other addons. But I am also no expert... ^_^

 

I hope that's how it works but even if it doesn't people will just have to decide on what's important to them.

 

No one is forcing people to use Orbx products. If FTXG + OpenLC is "that good" then I'll use it, even if it means compromise on some other addons. If it's not, then there are alternatives for people.

 

I'd much rather a developer attempt to do something great and new then neuter their work to stick to a 7 year old SDK. I know going in there could be complications but the payoff has been worth it so far to me.

[mmann 72]

I remember having that issue years back. Flew into SF and found the bay was a shrub forest.

 

If you were flying a float plane at the time, the landing would have been a challenge! :lol:

[robmw 22]

Absolutely, and from what I have seen at OrbX at least publicly, they are willing to share this info and work with other developers to make sure their products mesh well with OrbX products. Is this the way it should be, maybe not, but OrbX is trying to improve and extend an outdated and unsupported product in FSX.

 

This scenario is not impacting NickN's product GEX, since FXTG replaces it. Therein lies the real problem with his posts. Scare users away from FTXG so they will stick with GEX.

 

In reading the majority of posts about FTXG on the interweb, its not working, even with the problems outlined so far.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

 

And this is the heart of the problem really, isn't it? In this scenario everyone has to work with what Orbx are doing rather than the original SDK which by definition is the baseline, so de facto, Orbx becomes a new baseline.

 

This will be resolved when the uninstaller is available or better FTX default is an option in FTX Central again :smile:

[bonchie 2,305]

And this is the heart of the problem really, isn't it? In this scenario everyone has to work with what Orbx are doing rather than the original SDK which by definition is the baseline, so de facto, Orbx becomes a new baseline.

 

No, far better to allow the changes to be reversed so that developers can choose if they wish to work with each other and have a means to revert if not.

 

This will be resolved when the uninstaller is available or better FTX default is an option in FTX Central again :smile:

 

That's the price of progress. Everything can't stay the same using the same standard forever.

 

Orbx is doing the right thing by offering to integrate other's products into what they are doing (the products that use their own autogen calls seem to be the bulk of the issue...most everything else has no problems). They are even doing the work for the other developers, simply just asking for the data. I'd rather them do that and work forward then continue to just say "that's not possible" as many developers have said in the past.

 

And if a few addons just absolutely don't work or their developers don't want to allow Orbx to integrate their work with theirs, then the customer reserves the right to simply choose which product they need the most.

[WarpD 824]

Replacing core sim files for your own product support that results in a non-SDK-compliant behavior is an unacceptable choice by any developer except Microsoft.

 

What if I developed a replacement for the panels.dll interface?  It's the code that controls all of the gauge rendering.  If I created a replacement that gave my gauges a brilliant and amazing new capability/appearance/whatever... but in the same 'stroke' made all other gauges function incorrectly.... do you honestly think that's acceptable behavior on my part?

 

If you change the base behavior of the sim with respect to the standards laid out in Microsoft's SDK... then it is upon you to release an SDK update for all other developers.  In other words, if you change the base product in a way that breaks functionality defined in the SDK... you must provide a way for all developers to work with the changes.

 

If what is being claimed is true, then indeed OrbX must provide the necessary information to any and all developers to get their own software/addons/etc to work with the changes... otherwise, they must provide a way to remove the changes easily.

[MrSpeaker 122]

People change. When I married my wife the way I saw her then to the way I see her now is poles apart

 

lol, Im in the same boat dude.

[mmann 72]

Often the topic is raised at FSDeveloper.com about altering FSX files. The answer from all the long time developers was the same: don't do it. It is recommended that you override with exclusions rather than overwrite with your own files. If Orbx wants to change this long standing tradition then it behooves them to provide an easy route back to default. To release an addon without this capability is reckless and shows complete contempt for other addon companies.

[Guest]

I totally agree with bonchie! Although I have to add that's easy for me to say because I like everything Orbx does and I don't plan on using any other scenery addons (apart from UTX which works well with FTXG).

 

 

If what is being claimed is true, then indeed OrbX must provide the necessary information to any and all developers to get their own software/addons/etc to work with the changes... otherwise, they must provide a way to remove the changes easily.

 

Orbx is talking and already working together with a lot of devs to make the various products compatible. So... other devs HAVE the option to jump on board... However, competing devs won't be so easily convinced to do so, of course. And I of course can imagine if a company simply decides on its own to change the rules, other companies won't like that. And neither will some customers. But then again, I rather have a company improve an old product and move the boundaries forward than everyone sticking with an old program and not change a thing just to not upset another dev... Maybe some devs are a bit ###### because Orbx does what they didn't dare to do themselves... or what they SHOULD have done themselves...!

 

So again, I agree with bonchie. And again, I like Orbx scenery so it's easy for me to say so.

 

EDIT

Something else I thought about: what if Orbx had decided to create a totally new sim. No one would have minded that. Instead they decided to build upon an old sim and improve it. You either like it and go with it or you don't like it and don't go with it. Look at FSX with FTX scenery as some sort of new sim, a new direction and make your choice: do you want to go that way or not? That's another way of looking at it!

 

In the end progress simply HAS to result into things becoming incompatible... There is no way you can progress and improve something while ALWAYS staying compatible.

[bonchie 2,305]

If what is being claimed is true, then indeed OrbX must provide the necessary information to any and all developers to get their own software/addons/etc to work with the changes... otherwise, they must provide a way to remove the changes easily.

 

They are already doing that. And the only issue so far appears to be with custom autogen from some sceneries needing to be added to their lookup table.

 

Orbx is taking the data from developers willing to share it and adding it to their modified lookup table. They aren't demanding others develop around them, etc. People can and should still develop by the MS SDK standard. The onus is on Orbx to make things compatible and they have a long history of doing so (go check out their specific forum for this to see what I mean).

 

An uninstaller is otw as well if you want to remove the changes. My guess is they develop a way to simply turn off the modified lookup table the same way they did with their regional sceneries. That'd be the best way to do it.

[WarpD 824]

Ok... Jeroen... then to you it is acceptable for me to release a new panels.dll file that changes the base behavior of the sim and makes any other gauge product already out there unuseable?  I believe that's your stance based on your post above.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

They are already doing that. And the only issue so far appears to be with custom autogen from some sceneries needing to be added to their lookup table.

 

Orbx is taking the data from developers willing to share it and adding it to their modified lookup table. They aren't demanding others develop around them, etc. People can and should still develop by the MS SDK standard. The onus is on Orbx to make things compatible and they have a long history of doing so (go check out their specific forum for this to see what I mean).

 

An uninstaller is otw as well if you want to remove the changes. My guess is they develop a way to simply turn off the modified lookup table the same way they did with their regional sceneries. That'd be the best way to do it.

No... that's not exactly what I stated.

 

There is a major difference between "give us your stuff and we'll change it" versus "here's the way to integrate your stuff to work with our changes"

 

If OrbX is changing the base sim's behavior... how to work with those changes in place needs to be publicly available and doable without having OrbX do the "work".

 

Edit: Let's be clear... I don't do scenery and thus there's no "win" or "loss" to me either way.

[William J.S.S 173]

What addon does FTXG break ?