"this is a very good example why they mustn't listen to their customers"

 

With all due respect that is no,no, way a business should operate-but then I grew up in a time when " the customer is always right" was the credo that was a proven way for a successful businesses-after all it is "their" money that is supporting "your" product.

 

I understand his post completely-I did a post well documented 1year ago showing with screen shots very graphically and systematically where the scenery system of xplane was/still is a collosal fail for my part of the world.

 

I also was and still am a commentator on the flight model failures since the early versions of xplane. Despite being labelled by some, most of the flight model failures have eventually been addressed-and the torque bug is eagerly awaited.Odd since every time I was told the fm's were perfect in the hands of a master and that I must be a FSX xplane hater instead of addressing the real issue- which is an issue-since there were problems with the flight model.

 

" the customer does not know what he wants"?

 

This is and has been the core xplane mindset that IMHO will make this sim never get above the mediocre level and has been always the mindset-and this is such a shame.

 

I've invested so much in ths sim hoping that at some point this mindset will change-but it never seems too. very sad... I am inherently an optimist but years of this mentality which never really changed has tasked my positive attitude which simply hopes all involved have a goal of making their sim the best possible understanding hardware/ software limitations of the time.

 

I have to say-with all my beta tests with other flight sim platforms-when mentioning a flaw or a bug -sometimes we got" you are correct but the powers above us can't allow us to devote time to that now" or " we would like to accomplish that but that would take too much power for the average processor we can't do that now"

 

Never, never, were we we told our perceptions were wrong, or that we were " flight unlimited'ers" or that heaven forbid they should listen to the paying customer who after all is paying the bills.

 

As I' ve said repeatedly this mentality has always been the thing that has held xplane back, and will continue to if not changed.

I've seen little that shows it will ever change...and how about a recognition that the paying customers have been right about a lot- most recently in ground handling in high winds and the torque bug.

 

Geof

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Laminar don't listen to their customers from, but Austin and Ben Supnik have always encouraged feedback on every single X-Plane version from their customers AND developers.  There are also several beta's during each version run for anyone to provide feedback on.  The beta's are not just for bug reporting.

Austin even hands out his personal email so anyone can provide feedback.  As long as the feedback is backed up by hard figures, they will always take it seriously.

I missed the point above but agree you can very certainly compare fsx with lots of add on's to XP.  If XP doesn't match up in that respect then it's bad luck for XP and good for FSX.

 

      This is how consumers buy most things.   

 

      Just take the iphone when it got the appstore and things exploded and it had an app for everything.   How would it stack upif android users said thats not fair, you have to compare the stock iphone to a stock android phone.

 

      Well thats wrong, it was the huge amount of available apps, an app for everything that took the iphone on the ride it's been on. 

 

       Same with XP, you can never say you have to compare it to stock FSX, thats ridiculous because thats not how the FSX people are going to use it.

Great post by Dan Klaue on the Org.

 

 

Great post by Dan Klaue on the Org.

 

Link?

 

Yes, Dan doesn't right that much, but when he does, he really writes sharp and on-spot!

 

Will search that post there ;-)

Link?

I think, he means this one: http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=71499&p=774065

Thx Alpilot.

 

Just added my own post there :-)

 

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?showtopic=71499&page=6#entry774093

Yes, that one! 

 

He is spot on the money with that post.

BTW, Carenado's contribution to X-Plane is a good example of a major 3pd with their main base in FSX, and somehow in P3D too, who manages to offer us X-Plane 10 users a very good set of GA aircraft.

 

I look forward to get each one on it's time because those I own - Baron 58, Bonanza F33 and the Seneca - are very well done.

Geof

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Laminar don't listen to their customers from, but Austin and Ben Supnik have always encouraged feedback on every single X-Plane version from their customers AND developers. There are also several beta's during each version run for anyone to provide feedback on. The beta's are not just for bug reporting.

Austin even hands out his personal email so anyone can provide feedback. As long as the feedback is backed up by hard figures, they will always take it seriously.

I see no where in my above post that I said Laminar does not listen to its customers. I am addressing an xplane culture exemplified by the above comment that no one should listen to the customer....you know.... Like way back when we were discussing poor ground handling in winds and users were told on this board it was their fault for trying to fly in winds over 7 kts...simple searches reveal all. It makes it hard for Laminar to listen if valid critics are continually ridiculed. The torque bug has taken how long?

The torque bug has taken how long?

 

A LOT!  But it finally found it's way into the updates cycle, and for me it was a marker stone ( the day Austin announced his commitment to work on this particular issue...) even if the changes he makes aren't going to feel perfect on the first update...

 

It's something I will never be able to get for FSX, unless we use the tweaks there too, just as creating invisible control inputs to try to reproduce realistic aircraft "reactions" to given flight situations / configurations, or running parts of the systems simulation outside of the simulator. FSX's FDM room is locked / sealed... X-plane's one is open to improvement, and not only the FDM, also weather, scenery rendering, AI, ATC... it's all moving, even if slower than we would like it to...

Yeah-16 years ago I remember a user of pro pilot wondering when there were continual delays of a promised patch a user wondered if he would still be alive when it was finally released. I thought this extremely humorous at the time- I find myself now in the same position with your above list

 

64 bits is great, but for me not that much has changed since xplane 10 was released except my immediately purchased Carenado aircraft finally work almost 2 years later and my Reality XP gps no longer works in 64 bit and 32 bit within minutes crashes making it unusable.

I see no where in my above post that I said Laminar does not listen to its customers. I am addressing an xplane culture exemplified by the above comment that no one should listen to the customer....you know.... Like way back when we were discussing poor ground handling in winds and users were told on this board it was their fault for trying to fly in winds over 7 kts...simple searches reveal all. It makes it hard for Laminar to listen if valid critics are continually ridiculed. The torque bug has taken how long?

Nope.  Don't remember.  But then again, I don't remember what I had for lunch either.  Some things I can move on from.  It's kinda sad that you're very first reply to me was about likening a conversation we had almost a year ago that was cleared up in PM (somewhat) to your interpretation of some kind of X-Plane culture.  

-sigh-

In any case, I'd like to see statements where Laminar ridiculed anyone.  Although, maybe I'm not as sensitive as some others.  So your idea of ridicule may vary greatly from mine.

A LOT!

 

But it finally found it's way into the updates cycle, and for me it was a marker stone ( the day Austin announced his commitment to work on this particular issue...) even if the changes he makes aren't going to feel perfect on the first update...

 

It's something I will never be able to get for FSX, unless we use the tweaks there too, just as creating invisible control inputs to try to reproduce realistic aircraft "reactions" to given flight situations / configurations, or running parts of the systems simulation outside of the simulator. FSX's FDM room is locked / sealed... X-plane's one is open to improvement, and not only the FDM, also weather, scenery rendering, AI, ATC... it's all moving, even if slower than we would like it to...

 

I'll get right to the point. Flight physics in all of these electronic desktop sims are "fake". No real air, and not enough computing power to displace an actual wind tunnel, or flight testing of a completed product. I'd never use a desktop model to determine density altitude figures for takeoffs, landings, or clearing a specific mountain ridge.

 

When it comes to the "torque bug"...........it wasn't just a case of adding some more fakery to cover it up. It actually became a new "desktop" physic, that many started to believe in. You can go back through post after post, in which someone has tried out X-Plane after many years of using FSX, and is surprised just how much more work X-Plane is, to takeoff and fly level. They start believing that FSX was just too simplified, and truly flew on rails. If that isn't bad enough, other X-Plane users, actually acknowledge this supposeable FSX deficiency, and push the "torque myth" farther.

 

When the "torque" problem is finally taken care of, which it still is not........then I'll change my perspective on this issue. It will still be fake air, but perhaps a bit more realistic.

 

By the way, since some good friends of mine, flew to a distant state for brunch, for the previous two weekends, I told then to keep an eye on the "torque", and report back. It was basically, "I didn't notice". "Just thought about rudder on takeoff". Of course, I explained roll coupling and all of that......since they don't really get into the finer aspects of flight modeling.

Nope. Don't remember. But then again, I don't remember what I had for lunch either. Some things I can move on from.

In any case, I'd like to see statements where Laminar ridiculed anyone. Although, maybe I'm not as sensitive as some others. So your idea of ridicule may vary greatly from mine.

The only variance is I never said"laminar" ridicules anyone-you did-and perhaps this is the exact climate I am speaking of that needs to change.

The only variance is I never said"laminar" ridicules anyone-you did-and perhaps this is the exact climate I am speaking of that needs to change.

Really?  Who were you talking about?

 

It makes it hard for Laminar to listen if valid critics are continually ridiculed.

If you are talking about valid critics (whoever they might be) being ridiculed by the general public (That's the only reasonable statement, other than my original interpretation, I can gather), I think you have very little respect for Laminar. Like I said...show them hard figures and they'll listen.  They ignore the people who say "The torque roll is too strong".  Hardly anything to work with.